Aliens Colonial Marines - saddest shit ever?

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    thing is I just don't believe the Alien franchise offers enough for an RPG.

    Now see, if we compare that to Star Wars then you have a lot of twists, you can do something that is serious, or fun, with a lot of different kind of Science Fiction.

    The alien franchise is rather limited in how much you can do something before it doesn't feel like "alien" anymore, like the "sneak" stuff where you spy on the corporation or well making it outright an mass effect like action game. Is that really alien? Not to me. Its about killing xenomorphs on remote locations while you fight for your survival. Both AvP3 and Aliens CM suck because just to slap "aliens" on something isn't enough. It works definitely better with Star Wars because well, Star Wars is generic fiction (doesn't mean its bad! Its very good in what it is!). The writing or story has nothing to do with that. Its just a very particular kind of franchise. As said, I don't say its impossible to achieve here a great game.

    *Though if I look at some of the concept art designs for the creature ... Rhino Alien ... almost as ridiculous like the gorilla xeno morph or the flying xeno queen. This really isn't helping to convince me that Obsidian knew the franchise much better then other companies. See thats an great example for what I mean, if you have some flying crazy bugs charging at you in Star Wars, thats awesome because you have a reason again to penetrate something with your light saber or blow a hole in them with your blaster. Something like that though would simply feel ridiculous in the alien franchise.

    Maybe I am biased no clue! Because honestly I see it like BN:

    The plot and atmosphere of Alien would be hard to replicate in a video game, though. Different media, different requirements. It's not surprising video games reduced it to "wade your way through hundreds of xenomorphs!" which is kind of missing the point of Alien, and perhaps even of Aliens, action flick though it was.

    I'd be very interested if a developer could pull off a game where it's just you, a group of survivors whose morale you have to monitor, and a single alien picking you off one by one. Or has something like that been produced? I can't say I follow this franchise closely in video game form, for fairly obvious reasons.


    I mean this looks pretty shit to me, even for an pre pre pre pre pre alpha

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxmb1s_ac_videogames?start=28#.USeTSTdQCSo
     
  2. cronicler

    cronicler Lurksalot

    May 31, 2006
    Crni Vuk; I kinda agree and disagree at the same time, let me try to explain.

    For me, in Alien and Aliens, Xenomorph(s) were the immediate problem in the vein of a forest fire or flood, it wasn't evil, it/they were the antagonists for the action bits. The real bad guy was always the Corp, be it self serving computer directives or executives.

    Aliens are animals, so there isn't much material to build a story there; not more than "move to location A, have set piece battle, move to location B, have survival horror episode, move to location B, get ambushed" and so on.

    Corporation provides a face and malevolent intelligence that we can fight for or alongside or against. You can rebel against them or work for them or just keep your head down and try to survive. Wouldn't you like to hang the other saps out dry and capture the xenomorph sample your idiot boss wanted to smuggle, sell it to another corp and live like a minor nobility at the end of the game?
     
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    that doesnt change the fact what made the movies scary

    Alien movies are about the characters and their survival. You are so far right that the are not any more the antagonist here then zombis in zomby movies. The Walking dead isnt an interesting movie because of zombies, it could be also like any other post apocalyptic themed show, its interesting because of the characters, their relation to each other and to watch them how they survive. Ordinary people thrown out of their usual lifes in to very hostile situations.

    The corporation only started with the end of Alien 3 to play a bigger role and it pretty much ended there.

    As far as many alien fans goes the alien franchise stoped with Alien 3.
     
  4. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Did you read the summary provided by WUE at all?

    Furthermore, the claim "Weyland-Yutani only got a bigger role by the end of Alien 3" is self-delusional, as WY's actions are behind Alien and Aliens. Their attempts to weaponize the xenomorphs are why Nostromo was destroyed and Hadley's Hope vaporized.
     
  5. cronicler

    cronicler Lurksalot

    May 31, 2006
    Use Xenomorphs for adrenaline and horror while using Corp to build the story and "adventure" aspects of the game.

    And seriously, W-Y directives were the main reason Science Officer Ash (the android) back stabbed the crew in Aliens (and probably caused the deaths of Parker and Lambert) and Burke's/W-Y's harebrained plan to salvage the sacrificial colony quietly is the whole reason behind the whole Sulaco deployment.
     
  6. Mad Max RW

    Mad Max RW Mildly Dipped

    Jan 12, 2004
    I like how in Alien Resurrection there's a deleted scene where they explain Walmart acquired Weyland-Yutani in the years after Alien 3.
     
  7. Alphadrop

    Alphadrop A right proper chap.

    Aug 21, 2008
    Problem with Weyland Yutani is it's always the big bad for almost everything, yea the corp is evil but it would be nice to see the rebel factions mentioned in the fluff like the Colonial Marine Technical Manual (which is a thing o' beauty) try and weaponise the aliens for once.

    Considering the popularity of the new X-Com, a top down Aliens turn based game doesn't seem that far fetched an idea, Incubation with xenomorphs indeed.
     
  8. cronicler

    cronicler Lurksalot

    May 31, 2006
    :( :'(
    Buhu!


    Now you made me sad. Why did you have to remind me incubation and the mehness that is new X-Com? Isn't it bad enough that I've been waiting more than 10 years for someone to put JA combat into Fallout or Fallout grade mini storyline(s) into X-Com (and overhaul the strategic level assets to a believable/acceptable level)




    On W-Y, this was supposed to take place short time after the Aliens film (like the POS:CM) so W-Y couldn't have broken down yet.

    Now rebels on the other hand could have opened some interesting paths :twisted:
     
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    There is nothing in either Alien 1 or Aliens which really confirms it except that Ripley tells that to the marines "... to get it back and make it an weapon". How? Why? Or how does Ripley know it that this is exactly what they would do. She has not more knowledge about the corporation then any other person in the Alien world as far as we can get this out from the dialogues in the movie

    Ripley: Just tell me one thing, Burke. You're going out there to destroy them, right? Not to study. Not to bring back. But to wipe them out.
    Burke: That's the plan. You have my word on it.
    Ripley: All right, I'm in.

    Its fair to assume that bio weapon research would be one motivation for the corporation. But its just speculation on her part. And in Alien 3 nothing of that gets really mentioned. As said, if we go ONLY with the first 3 movies then the role of the corporation isn't that huge. It plays its part, to get the story forward but thats it. We have no clue what the role of the corporation is in the movie, just as we don't know what role the Marines play. What structure or forms of government they use in the movies etc. - I personally don't consider Comics or Games as canon just something to consider as long it doesn't contradict the movies, its as said fair to assume that the corporation has a larger role but its not something that we can claim because it helps if you make a game for example since characters like Bishop or Weyland are easy to recognize. Funny is though that past Alien games like AvP1 and AvP2 didn't even include characters from the movies ... and they are in general seen as some of the better alien games.

    Interesting is that even after the Nostromo got destroyed no one got the idea to actually do another visit on LV. Maybe this time with professionals and an science vessel. People should not forget that between Alien and Aliens there is no real continuity because Alien was never made with an "Sequel" in mind. And we also never know if what Burke did was an order by his higher officials or just his own decisions in his dialogue with Ripley he tells that all was his own decision and that he made an mistake, but he could be as well simply lying to not reveal the people which gave him the order. Aliens follows the event of Alien of course. But it seems no one ever thought it would be interesting to actually look again for the Jockey ship before Ripley started to show up again despite the distress signal (or what ever you want to call it). We can speculate that someone got the idea to start a colony there but the signal stoped its transmission maybe because it losts its power source or what ever and they had no chance to find the ship again. But that is as said, all just speculation! The corporation was never really fleshed out in any of the 3 movies. And it is not even clear if Bishop in Alien 3 was another Android or an real person. Not in the movies at least. The End credits as far as I remember even say "Bishop 2". He is what the Xenopedia says about it

    [spoiler:5e204c695c]The character of the synthetic Bishop was originally played by actor Lance Henriksen in the film Aliens (1986). He was introduced as an apparently sympathetic synthetic character meant to add to the drama of the sequel given the appearance of a more sinister synthetic in the original Alien film. Henriksen reprised the role, albeit in the form of a special prosthetic double playing his badly mangled corpse, in the series' third film, Alien3, and then later appeared in the same film as character credited as Bishop II, who claimed to be the android's designer. The novelization of Alien3 by Allan Dean Foster named this character as "Michael Bishop," the Weyland-Yutani designer of the Bishop androids, who is said to have modelled the androids after himself. The film itself fails to make it clear whether Bishop II is human or an android, leaving much ambiguity, although Henriksen himself has been quoted as saying that he believes the character was simply an advanced model android. The Assembly Cut of the film seems to imply that Michael Weyland is in fact human, but a definitive answer has yet to be given either way. [/spoiler:5e204c695c]

    Seriously neither in Alien or Aliens the Corporation played a large role. Burke was the only person you really see and which plays a role in the movie. I suggest to go and read again original statements by the people which MADE those movies where they explain the role of the corporation. It was not meant to be some huge evil thing. It was more just a statement to show what kind of role humans have in the Alien world. This could be seen as evil, yes but its more meant as criticism and to make the plot a bit deeper then just about space truckers which die in space. Its not like corporations today deal that much different with human lives and profit (see the Coca Cola company or Pepsi where they have no problem to start a war in South America for profit gain).

    Only in the comics, AvP movie and games the corporation started to play a larger role and got actually more back story. As far as the movies go the corporation could have been just like any other company in the Alien franchise.

    says who? You? You have some source of that which go further then comics/games? Dont use A:CM please. Its an utter piece of garbage raping the franchise for the sweet green - money.

    The Alien caused the death of Parker and Lambert. As far as Ahs role goes in to the movie he protected the creature. What the company wants to do with the creature was never made clear however. he was just there to make sure the creature arrives with the ship alive.

    The Book is interesting on that part because it has scenes which are missing in the movie completely they are not even included in the directors cut where Ripley discovers the remains of Brett and Cap. Dallas.[spoiler:5e204c695c] Brett was transformed in to an Egg and Dallas glued to an wall telling Ripley to kill him. Which she did.[/spoiler:5e204c695c]

    In the book after the death of Dallas, Parker discovers the Alien in one of the air looks investigating the machines, and just as Parker told Lambert over the com to close the air lock someone initiated the alarm sequence which warned the creature, the air lock is closing cutting of an arm from the Alien while it escapes in to the ship leaving Parker behind but with an damaged air lock, the crew managed to save parker and seal off the section and later they confront Ash with the alarm. It seems that Ash even tried to communicate with the creature. The book Ash told the crew that it would have been as well nice if the crew survived but it was not one of his primary objectives.

    What kind of role the corporation has in all of this is simply put, speculation.

    My memory is a bit shoddy right now but as far as I remember in the script and Alien it was "just" the corporation. Nothing more, nothing else. No name, no face, nothing that would tell us if it was an huge company or just some small mining corporation on some remote planet at the edge of the solar system. The idea about Weyland and Weyland Yutani was born latter as far as I know with Aliens and Alien 3. In the Script for Alien and the movie it self it was always labeled as the "Corporation". This was done on purpose to leave it as an faceless and souless company which could stand for ANY company of the Alienfranchise.

    *Edit
    Looks like I stand corrected in that part at least as far as the name goes, but its really hard to notice it anyway!

    The company's original name was Weylan-Yutani, briefly seen on a monitor in the film Alien; this name was created by Ron Cobb, one of the designers of the Nostromo and its crew's uniforms. The "d" was added to the first part of the name by James Cameron in Aliens.

    "One of the things I enjoyed most about Alien was its subtle satirical content. Science fiction films offer golden opportunities to throw in little scraps of information that suggest enormous changes in the world. There's a certain potency in those kinds of remarks. Weylan Yutani for instance is almost a joke, but not quite. I wanted to imply that poor old England is back on its feet and has united with the Japanese, who have taken over the building of spaceships the same way they have now with cars and supertankers. In coming up with a strange company name I thought of British Leyland and Toyota, but we couldn't use "Leyland-Toyota" in the film. Changing one letter gave me "Weylan," and "Yutani" was a Japanese neighbor of mine".

    —Ron Cobb, "The Authorized Portfolio of Crew Insignias from The United States Commercial Spaceship Nostromo Designs and Realizations" by John Mollo and Ron Cobb
    ...
    When James Cameron was assigned to write and direct the sequel, the role and significance of Weyland-Yutani increased greatly, becoming an indispensable element in Alien lore. The original Weyland-Yutani logo was an Egyptian winged-sun emblem; it was modified to its current corporo-industrial interlocked W/Y for Aliens.
     
  10. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Yeah, the directive to Science Officer Ash that the xenomorph be retrieved at any cost, with crew expendable is totally nothing. It was a deliberate order from the corporation.

    Or the fact that Burke consistently undermined the USCM force and even tried to get Newt and Ripley implanted with alien embryos to smuggle them on Earth for research. He even sent the colonists to check the ship out in the first place.

    The fact that something's not OVERT IN YOUR FACE EVIL CORPORATION BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA, doesn't mean it's not there.
     
  11. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Just a quick side question, did only the Nostromo have that order in the computer's memory banks or did all W-Y operated spacecraft carry this command?

    Perhaps I am thinking to much about it but if only the Nostromo have that order it would sort of imply that W-Y knew about the possibility of something like the derelict being at Zeta Reticuli, and they could have send a follow up expedition afterwards after the Nostromo never came in or responded to any kind of transmission instead of waiting for almost fifty years.

    If the order was more 'wide spread' it would imply that the company knew that there were interesting alien artefacts around but no direct clues where to find them, having to wait instead if one of their ships or probes came across any evidence like transmissions.
     
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Lets not forget that Ripley, Parker, Brett and pretty much all of the crew of the Nostromo worked for the "corporation", they have been employes just like Parker and everyone else just as how Burke was an employe. Doesn't that somehow imply that they are "evil" as well?

    Seriously, why do you insist so much on making the corporation to "more" then what the movies showed to us?

    After all we know they COULD be this huge evil monster lead by Satan himself that the comics/games made them to be in some cases. Or which is more realistic they are an huge conglomerate where someone weighing the costs and benefits of certain situations which are in this case human lifes. Isnt that what certain politicians did when they send troops to hostile zones? Like lets say Vietnam which was an huge inspiration for Cameron when he decided to have Burk with the marines.

    Hey Tagz? Have you not tried once to explain me how "greed" is the biggest force behind everything pushing humanity further all the time. How is it suddenly a bad thing. What made you change your opinion.

    Also:

    Or the fact that Burke consistently undermined the USCM force

    After all we know it could be that the USCM is actually under corporate controll. The movies have never been clear about what role the marines actually play in the world of Aliens, how much the corporation controlls. The marines might get a lot of their weapons from them. Maybe it is even normal to have some corporate officers on such missions. Remember, it is Bishop that tells Ripley that Burke wants to take the 2 specimen with them and only after Ripley actually tells him to publicise his "mistake", about the colony sending the colonists out there searching for the ship without any kind of warning that he tried to impregnate her and the child. I doubt he would have told Bishop which was a part of the marine force that he wants to take the specimen with them if it would have been illegal or something like that.

    Again. I dont want to justify here anything. I am just saying, why dont we stay with what we know from the movie instead of making the corporation into something the movie never explained.

    If I tell you that Pepsi asked Kissinger and/or the US governement to overthrow the government of Chile or that the Coca Cola company has been involved in certain situations where people in South America dissapeared because they criticised the labor law in their plants, would you suddenly assume that the corporation as whole is evil as well? Welcome to the real world then. Why should it be different for Alien/Aliens?

    Again lets try to stay with the facts and not speculate TO much as far as the movies go. The movie never mentions what Burks real motivations are or where they even come from. Bishop says in Alien 3 that the corporation always knew everything what happend on the SULACO that they always have been in contact with the situation there, but this could be a normal procedure after all as its THEIR colony and it is very likely that the marines get the equipment from them. It might be even possible that the troops in the end of Alien 3 are space marines as well. Maybe Burke had orders from the corporation to retreive some Aliens while the Marines secure the colony. Or maybe they learned about it only later when Ripley got back on board and the Ship transmitted all of the informations back to the corporation. There are a lot of possibilities here. But we will never know it because the movies never explained it.

    As far as I remember the order to stop and investage signals is in part of all ships, at least it seems likely considering that Dallas reminds Parker about his contract that they lose all their salary if they just "continue" their flight, since Parker makes that suggestion as they are not some kind of professional rescue team and Ash is mentiones that part about the Contract.

    The book I have which is written after the original script mentiones that the corporation actually deciphered the message and that the space jockeys have been very clear about to NOT land there as it was some kind of warning. Of course Ripley and heir crew did not know about it. And the movie doesnt mention it just that when Mother their computer worked with the message it seemt more like an warning. I guess Ash got his instructions before he moved to the Ship anyway.

    The company however definitely knew that something was in that system hence why Ash was on board.

    What I ask my self thoug his if Dallas knew just as much as Ripley did later since he was the captain he had all the time access to the computer. When he died Ripley had the autority to talk with the Computer now about the situation. The Computer pretty much explained her the situation and it also explained her the orders Ash had. Has Dallas ever cared enough to search for informations in the Computer? Or even asking Ash eventually? He wasnt really surprised about why his original officers got replaced by Ash literaly in the last minute when Ripley is confronting him with it. As Dallas explained, they are all company property, and the company does what it wants.
     
  13. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003


    You were saying?

    Furthermore, the Colonial Marines Technical Marines pretty much outright states that the corporations are using the USCM to further their goals, such as in the case of Cristobal. The Marines were used to take down a workers rebellion and "restore order," which pretty much included murdering 500 colonial militiamen and 1,500 civilians, covered up by psyop broadcasts about minimal loss of life and destruction of evidence (mass graves seeded with bacterias turning flesh into goo). All so that AmArc corporations could register profit.

    Weyland-Yutani is unambiguously evil, in every movie released. The strong anti-corporate message is part of the setting.

    Last, greed is indeed the great motivator. Doesn't mean it's good in excessive amounts. That should be obvious.
     
  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Which I NEVER even disputed. All I am saying is that the movie doesn't show enough about the corporation or even giving out enough informations to say if what Weyland corp is doing is exceptionally evil or rather "normal" which isn't even that much out of place when you consider military actions in our world - we don't fight for oil remember only for freedom and democracy of course.

    Evil is always a point of view and of course I do agree with you that the actions performed by the corporate people in Alien and Aliens is rather on the negative side of the spectrum.

    From statements by Both Cameron and the original Alien crew/writers its clear that both movies contain a very strong anti-corporate message which was meant as criticism, but they never paint them as simply "that evil force" out there. The corporate is an faceless thing somewhere behind the scene to give the plot some depth, it isn't even fleshed out enough to make it an antagonist for example. This only started really somewhat with Aliens and the end of Alien 3 if you want so. But even in Aliens it is never made clear what ever if Burke acted alone or with the knowledge of his superiors.

    don't just throw an image around. I know this message just as well as you do. Explain what you mean. I said countless times that Ash got his instructions directly from the company. Who gave him those instructions though is still never explained. The Company is doing bad things? I never disputed that the company isn't some charity organization or that they are not driven simply by profit. But we simply don't know enough about the company in Alien/Aliens to come to an conclusion about the corporation as WHOLE. If such procedures are rather normal for the corporation or not. Would you say that in an company with such size there would never be bad apples in the basket? I will say this again, even today certain corporations do a lot of "bad" things but people don't get the idea to call everyone and everything that has to do with it outright evil. Sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right leg is doing.

    But the movies never make that clear mind you which is what I am saying.
     
  15. cronicler

    cronicler Lurksalot

    May 31, 2006
    Crni Vuk;
    I don't get your antagony against W-Y. I know and agree that Xenomorphs need to be / must be the primary opposition but they don't bring any moral conflict or good/bad vs right/wrong choices to the table.

    A game focused solely on Xenomorphs would be a survival horror game, with just a light dressing of rpg (or to be more precise, level up & gear advance) mechanics.

    The thing is, if the player character manages to get out alive without some prepwork, s/he is going to be fucked over by the corp controlled gov/federal flunkies and shuffled into a broom closed a la Ripley after she got back.

    I'm not advocating battling against hordes of Corp Sec Goons in a cheapass CoD ripoff fashion (thanks POS:CM!), I just want a semi hidden side quest which involves you going out of your way to dig up enough dirt and assets to ensure that if you survive the Xenomorps, you will have a chance to evade the corp or even turn the tables on them and get rich off the debacle (evil wins! except yuo are the winning evil this time :D)
     
  16. Geech

    Geech It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 2, 2008
    I have to say, I really agree with Crni's larger point about the narrative role of the corporation in the original movies. They were barely present in Alien, certainly not enough to act as any kind of meaningful antagonist. In Aliens they played a larger role, but one that was still very limited. Burke himself was a much stronger antagonist than the company as a whole.

    I get that they've taken on more significance in the Aliens expanded universe, but trying to increase their importance in the first two films, and the first especially, is just a retcon.
     
  17. mobucks

    mobucks literally Orderite

    May 22, 2010
    I'm not going to write 5 paragraphs why you and Crni are wrong I'm just going to say you're both wrong. :twisted:

    Retcon. Haha. Watch both movies again. Just because there is no scene with evil W-U execs atop a flaming throne signing death warrants doesn't make their role less significant. If anything, their obscure, impersonal role in the events that happen in both movies serves as an even more effective vehicle to portray them as the primary antagonist. Read: Faceless Corporation. Burke, the droid, and whoever was on the other side communicating through "mother" are just W-U goons.

     
  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    hmm? Never said they could not play some role in the games. Even if just for "the bad guy over there". But seriously, so far neither AvP3 nor CM have an outstanding story ... so making the corporation satan didn't worked that well for the games anyway.

    I prefer an approach like in AvP2 for example anyway where it is more about the characters and their motivations. Rykov or the that Scientist which all had their own reason to fight the "player" with the marines somewhere in the middle.

    jesus christ WHAT damn role? They cant have more roles then what the original movie makers gave them really as far as the M O V I E S go. Sheesh ... seriously guys. Neither Ash nor Burke stand for the corporation as WHOLE. The corporation is an statement regarding corporations in the real world, a form of criticism. How can an "corporation" which is neither an person nor entity be evil? Next you want to tell me Germany was evil because of the Nazis negating the last 60 years of research. Yes, the corporation is an very questionable construct but only movies like Prometheus or the games (AvP3 for example) for example flesh out the corporation enough to make them CLEAR antagonists.

    If you say that Burke is in some way an antagonist then this is something I could even agree with. Probably less then Ash though.

    In the games they usually play a much larger role. Neither alien nor aliens really gives a lot of informations about the corporation. How big they really are, who is in charge over the whole corporation and who is actually deciding the direction, the corporate identity and image etc. You guys see Burke and suddenly jump to the conclusion that the corporation as whole must be absolutely evil. How is that even possible?
     
  19. Geech

    Geech It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 2, 2008
    Yeah, faceless alright. So silent and distant it's almost as if the corporation is hardly even present in the films. If you believe the company is primary antagonist of the first two films, I have to believe you don't know what that word means.
     
  20. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Truth be told, that is what I hated about the AvP movies and the last Aliens/AvP game; the obsession of giving the Weyland Yutani Corporation a face (as in a definite 'leader').

    It plays more into a hero fantasy than a sci fi thriller.