Any stuff related to unofficial F2 patches goes in here!

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by Per, Mar 20, 2005.

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  1. Per

    Per Vault Consort Staff Member Admin

    Apr 1, 2004
    UPDATED 2006-01-03

    Q: What are we talking about here?

    A: Some players have taken matters in their own hands to address the countless bugs left in Fallout 2 after the final official patch was released, and have compiled and released packs of replacement scripts, fixed maps, updated data files and the like. Being unofficial add-ons they count as mods, which is why this resides in the Modding forum.


    Q: Which are these patches, then?

    A: At this time we're primarily talking about the 1.02+ patch by killap, which contains almost exclusively bugfixes and touch-ups. There are also the 1.03 and 1.04 patches by Seraph (from which killap's patch derives some elements) and the 1.03, 1.04 and 1.05(.1) patches by Celestial; however, in addition to fixes all these contain various arbitrary changes with a tangible impact on game balance. The 1.05 patch is also known to contain a potentially game-stopping bug of its own.


    Q: How do I get hold of these things?

    A: They're available in the downloads section of No Mutants Allowed.


    Q: So what is this thread for?

    A: Since killap started working on his patch, it's been used for ongoing bugspotting and progress reports. If you need help with a technical or gameplay problem that happens when you have an unofficial patch installed, post about it here (with all the relevant details as usual).


    Q: What about the other patches? Are they still being worked on?

    A: No work is being done on the Celestial line of patches (including the announced and de-announced 1.06 patch). Seraph updated his patch to 1.04 in Nov 2005, but as far as bugfixing goes it is essentially made redundant by killap's patch. You can post questions, problems and insights related to the older patches here, but seeing as their creators are not active here and the contents are partially problematic, it seems likely that interest in them will wane. Resident knowledge about the specific details of these patches will for the most part be limited, so if you have a problem, don't discount the possibility that no one will have a ready answer for you.


    Q: Why can't I post in the regular gameplay forum if I'm having one of these patches installed? After all my problem could very well have nothing to do with the changes.

    A: It might not, but more importantly it might. Given the complex nature of an RPG like Fallout 2 even a small change could have subtle and unpredictable effects, potentially invalidating any knowledge or advice relating to the unmodded game. You owe it to the people who offer to help to provide them with any information needed to determine if they can provide an answer and should take the time to do so; playing a modified game definitely qualifies as such a circumstance.


    Q: Where can I find more information on my own?

    A: Regarding Celestial's patches you can look in this thread. It is rather long and cluttered, but it provides the background and near the end of it you can find some discussions on bugs and problems.


    Q: Is there any reason why I shouldn't immediately grab and install some of this?

    A: Well, if you're new to the game I actually recommend that you play the game at least once without any mods or unofficial extras. This way you know you're getting the "real" Fallout 2 experience, and, if nothing else, doing so lets you post in the gameplay/tech forum should you need it.
     
  2. Beta_Solution

    Beta_Solution First time out of the vault

    Apr 7, 2005
    Hmmm. Well, I guess I'll start first.

    Sereph's 1.03 Patch. I've downloaded it, and tried it, and it doesn't seem to work. (To my knowledge, at least)

    I try and use ModRunner to run the Abby Mod(It never does work, no matter how I try and run it(ModRunner/Just having the files/folders in Data folder).), and when I run it, it says that it can't backup Patch000.dat. FO2 ran anyways, but when I exited the game, it also said it can't restore patch000.dat.

    I backed up the original patch000.dat file to another folder, and so I just replaced the modded patch000.dat file with the original .dat file, and everything runs fine.

    Also, any way to know if Sereph's 1.03 patch and Celestial's 1.04/1.05 patches are stackable? That is, do the changes made in Sereph's patch also remain in effect when added to the changes made in 1.04/1.05 patches? Just curious, really. Don't need an anwser, per se...
     
  3. Lazarus Plus

    Lazarus Plus The smoovest

    Apr 1, 2005
    In the patches, things that are not fixed but are written as fixed by the patch makers:

    "- Raiders Base is now hidden"

    Can still find by running over. Not very hidden.

    "- Beer now weights 1 pound"

    Not really. Still weighs nothing.

    "- Party Members now change thier appearance when wearing armor"

    Also no.

    "- Now you can also skin the fire geckos"

    I haven't been able to after getting the Gecko Skinning Perk.
     
  4. dude_obj

    dude_obj Vault Senior Citizen
    Moderator

    Oct 19, 2004
    Unless you say which patches you're talking about, nobody knows.

    Well it's good to know what's broken in the patches, but at the moment I don't think anyone is maintaining the unofficial patches, so it's not likely anything will be fixed. If I'm incorrect about this, somebody please pipe up. Also, the Celestial patch has been idle for quite some time, I think there is no reason why someone else shouldn't pick it up and work on it further. Anyone want to pick up on the 1.05 patch and work towards a 1.06?
     
  5. Lazarus Plus

    Lazarus Plus The smoovest

    Apr 1, 2005
    Right. Well Celestial wandered off into the wasteland. I don't have the time to look into this, maybe someone else does. So, if someone else picks this up it will be the 1.06 patch by Locutus, updated by Celestial, and updated further by _____. Actually I think Locutus and Celestial are one and the same.
     
  6. Skynet

    Skynet Mildly Dipped

    Jun 5, 2003

    Those features works for me. You forgot to set all the *.PRO files in critters and items folder Read-Only mode, that´s why you have the Fire Gecko skinning problem and the alcohol problem. Also, delete the Patch000.dat in main directory, if it exits.
     
  7. Howlsh

    Howlsh First time out of the vault

    Apr 30, 2005
    I have the UK version of fallout with the illegal children patch (what a joke, thanks to the people who fixed it). Patch 1.05.1 is installed and the proto folder is read only (and all others bar savegame), I also deleted patch000.dat so F2.exe would recompile it. I have the holyhandgrenade fix and I'm using that wonderful F2 exe cracker to slow down the world map. Phew.

    I'll use the Colt Hunting Rifle as an example.
    Hunting Rifle:
    Dmg: 8-20 Range 45
    Ammunition: .223 FMJ
    AC Mod: -20 (I thought negative AC mods were used for spread weapons such as shotguns)
    DR Mod: -20 (FMJ wouldn't spread like JHP so I suppose this is correct)
    Dmg Mod: 3/0 (Woah tripple damage! No need for criticals with this ;) )
    Also the discriptive text should read */1. cannot devide by zero, brain freeze.
    This seems very wrong. I'd like to see a 1.06 pach which fix's gameplay balance issues like this
     
  8. dude_obj

    dude_obj Vault Senior Citizen
    Moderator

    Oct 19, 2004
    It's an attempt to balance the difference between armor peircing, full metal jacket, and hollow point ammo. But the method of AC/DR adjustment doesn't seem to work very well. We've tweaked the hell out of those modifiers and still can't get a proper AP/FMJ/JHP balance. But the negative AC, for example, our new .30-06 and .303 ammo have negative AC modifier, they can punch through armor.

    This is actually an error in the patch. There is no such thing as division by zero! Zero times anything is zero. All modifiers should have at least one as their damage divisor. The engine obviously was forgiving here, it must have saw the mistake in the proto and used one instead of zero. Had it tried to divide 3 by 0, it would have thrown an exception.

    This is also part of the attempt to balance the ammo differences. Usually the AP ammo will have 2/1 (200%) damage modifier, while JHP will have 3/1 (300%), but you also have to consider the AC and DR adjust. JHP does more damage by tripling, but it also has positive damage reduction, AP has negative.
     
  9. Howlsh

    Howlsh First time out of the vault

    Apr 30, 2005
    Here are my thoughts on those modifiers, please tell me if you've tested such thoughts already.
    AC mod: buckshot, flamers etc receive negative value. Poor ammo receives positive value.
    DR mod: Only armour should have a positive values. AP ammo and the like should get substantial negative values.
    Dmg mod: 1/1 for standard and AP, 2/1 for JHP.

    another issue i've encountered is poor burst fire accuracy, though that could be mainly because my current character is wielding a 10 MM SMG with 50% Light weapon skill.
     
  10. dude_obj

    dude_obj Vault Senior Citizen
    Moderator

    Oct 19, 2004
    Well it makes sense that anything that can go through armor reduces armor class, that includes large calibers (7.62mm etc) and stuff like 2mm EC flechette.

    No we have not tested this. This would imply that poor ammo actually increases armor class?

    Not sure what you mean about "only armour should have a positive value". The only thing that really makes sense if one wants to balance the AP/FMJ/JHP difference, is to give AP negative DR but also less damage modifier, and give JHP positive DR but more damage modifier. If anyone finds a better way I'd like to hear about it.

    See above. You have to consider all of these modifiers together, not look at them separately.

    Most of the burst weapon protos have a different (shorter) range for burst that for single fire. We changed this in FO2XP mod, so single fire and burst ranges are the same.
     
  11. Howlsh

    Howlsh First time out of the vault

    Apr 30, 2005
    AC as I understand it is a characters chance to dodge and evade. Area effects, burst and wave attacks would be harder to avoid.
    The damage threshhold would be the armours way of deflecting the bullets that struck the target then damage reduction would weaken the bullets that got through.

    So lets say a slaver fires at the player who is wearing metal armour, the armour has poor AC because it's heavy and low tech but can deflect shots as if the player was not hit. The slaver hits because his skill with small weapons was rather good, not because his ammo homed in on the target. the armours Damage threshhold takes the brunt of the damage, maybe even stopping it completely. If it doesn't stop it then the damage is reduced and the player takes damage. Now we have a hold in our armour, boo hoo :(

    AP ammo and FMJ are still effected by DT but they are effected far less by DR (it would be strange if a munition modified a characters DR to a negative value, would that add more damage?).
    I hope this clears things
     
  12. dude_obj

    dude_obj Vault Senior Citizen
    Moderator

    Oct 19, 2004
    No, it also includes protective value. Why does power armor have higher AC than leather? It's not because you can dodge and evade easier.
     
  13. Howlsh

    Howlsh First time out of the vault

    Apr 30, 2005
    I'd say because it's shiny and smooth also the players strength is augmented so he can move his heavy ass quicker. Remember which of the primary statistics governs AC, agility, the ability to move and avoid bad stuff.

    I noticed after boxing in New Reno that my natural damage threshold has risen a LOT. This seems to be further unbalancing the game. Unless a character has a hide of steel I don't think DT should be increased for natural defense, DR does fine.
     
  14. dude_obj

    dude_obj Vault Senior Citizen
    Moderator

    Oct 19, 2004
    Yes and you are always more agile in lighter armor, less agile in heavier armor ... yet AC is usually higher for heavy armor. As I said, I think it includes a "deflective" value. You can't hit someone in power armor with a BB not because he will dodge, but because a BB will bounce right off the armor. Also, the ST increase you get from power armor doesn't make you more agile, right?

    Although RPG books and such usually state AC is the ability to avoid being hit (as you said), and the base AC is derived from agility (dexterity), the armor itself adds AC because of its own ability to avoid you being hit (by wrapping armor around you). If it really was based solely on dodge ability, then heavier armor should lower AC, but the opposite is true.
     
  15. Question

    Question First time out of the vault

    Mar 20, 2005
    I used both 1.05 and 1.03.I was forced to use 1.03(seraph's) because 1.05 was bugged to hell.Particularly global variables never seem to get set properly(myron keeps thinking hes talking to you for the first time),and you keep getting xp for finding vault 13,and it is impossible to fix the computer.

    1.03 has some minor bugs(keycard in harold's office is not the gecko one,it is the klamath vertibird crash one),and some stuff that was listed as fixed wasnt actually.

    Attempts to contact seraph regarding bugs have failed.He simply didntrespond.Strange,as he pointed out the one on NMA was out of date,and told me to grab it from his site.

    Im holding out on the hope some people get together and make a 1.06.
     
  16. Howlsh

    Howlsh First time out of the vault

    Apr 30, 2005
    the characters ability to dodge and the armours ability to deflect projectiles from small angles both contribute to AC. If the bullet hits the armour but does not defeat the AC then we have a "near miss", if it hits the armour and defeaths the AC it then attempts to penetrate the armour (DT) and if it does the result is weakening of the initial damage (DR). This is how I see bullet dancing work in fallout.

    a more refined fallout2 patch would be great, lets keep the ideas flowing.
     
  17. killap

    killap Bear Dude Moderator Modder

    May 16, 2005
    Is there some list floating around here or on the web that contains a list of known unfixed bugs left in Fallout 2? I could swear in a post I read yesterday there was a mention of this, however I cannot find that thread nor from searching find a thread that talks about this. Just curious.

    Thanks.
     
  18. killap

    killap Bear Dude Moderator Modder

    May 16, 2005
    In a thread I read recently on here there was mention that Seraph's 1.03 patch found in the downloads section here is actually older than the one on his site. Sadly, his site appears to be down. Luckily for google cache I was able to get to his site and see when he last posted. His last post on his site was in early April. The post before that, however, made mention of a patch he released on January 21st 2005. This is much newer than the one from April 28 2004 that is found in the download section here. To make a long story short :wink: I was able through much sleuthing to find this newest patch of his.

    EDIT: I have uploaded this patch and hopefully it will soon be up.
     
  19. mvBarracuda

    mvBarracuda Vault Dweller

    Apr 11, 2004
    Plz don't tripplepost! The only thing you'll achieve this way is to upset the mods and that's surely not what you want.

    Instead of doing so: use the "EDIT" button if you have to add things so you don't have to post in a row while nobody had replied!
     
  20. Skynet

    Skynet Mildly Dipped

    Jun 5, 2003

    I asked Seraph about his work on 1.03 today, and he said that there should be a new update in next few days.
     
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