Black Lives Matter

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Mr Fish, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Easily. There's a lot of free work positions in our western regions for people willing to work, thanks to high industrialization in the area. Most of these industrial complexes are owned by foreign investors, such as German Volkswagen, so they policy cannot be labelled as "racist" or "intolerant" at all. Any gypsy duder willing to enter the work process is welcome and many took the opportunity - waking up early in the morning, working hard all day long, paying taxes/insurance, you know the drill. On top of it they don't need any high education or manual skills, requalification courses for any person willing to work are provided for free by the employer.

    Yet there are hundreds of thousands gypsies completely ignoring this opportunity. They move to the woods instead, building illegal villages in the wilderness far from civilized area, without any official permission and without access to the infrastructure - water, electricity, trash collection etc. They live happy responsibility-free lives here, paid for by tax payers in form of welfare, or by their own criminal activities, embracing their own cultural traditions instead of legal law imposed by hosting society, and speaking their own traditional gypsy language instead of official Slovak. Basically a parallel society living by its own rules.

    Can you name one single rational reason for this behavior with exception of hurr-durr raycist Slovaks did this?

    The conclusion is that a lot gypsy immigrants and their descendants are still deliberately refusing to properly integrate after hundreds of years, preserving their own culture, language, and traditions instead of accepting the official ones while taking huge advantages of our social system. This is a big social problem responsible for raised criminality on their part, and also raised numbers of locals leaning toward right wing ideology as a self-defense mechanism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  2. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010

    I kinda have to agree with this. This is a problem with gypsies in my country too. Other minority groups don't act like that, really.
     
  3. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Can confirm, other minorities living here don't bear these problems at all.

    Also, the progressive west keeps lecturing other countries on human rights until gypsies decide to swarm them as well. I remember how former French president received some heavy flak after he unleashed bulldozers on gypsy ghetto build in Paris by Romanians, before paying them handful of cash and deporting them back where they came from.

    Okay, I just realised we're spamming wrong thread, time to get back to BLM!
     
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Humhum. Whataboutism. Sure, we Germans/French/Brits etc. can be assholes to minorities too. Doesn't mean any argument about human rights suddenly becomes meaningless. See, just because the Germans used to lock up homosexuals in the 50s and 60s doesn't mean we can't lecture Russia about their anti-gay laws today.

    Also, kinda feels to me like you do recognize the issues that Roma/Sinti face in Slowakia and eastern Europe. But I guess we all find ways to ratinoalize and justify the stuff we see as 'correct'. We're all just humans.

    No I can't because I simply don't know the people we're talking about, and why they in particular decide to live such a lifestyle. You could as well ask me why some gay people prefer to wear women clothes, even though I have gay feelings, I couldn't answer you that question.

    I would have to dig way deeper in to it than what I can do here from my desk. But I never claimed to have some defintive answer anyway. I know enough Balkan-Assholes here, who shit on German culture and everyone of them has his own reason to do it, my father was one of those people by the way - doesn't mean that I agree with their view, I for example love Germany and I have no problem with it, but has that anti-german view something to do with coming from the 'Balkan'? Or the Balkan culture as a whole?
    *Shrugs*, I have no clue if I am honest. - But my gut feelings says, no it most probably hasn't.

    But we are talking about a very complex topic after all and I feel you (including Atomkilla) are somewhat cherry picking here. Correlation is not Causation. Are there Sinti and Roma living in illegal villages? I guess there are, you said so. I know Sinti and Roma that give a shit about society and I know some that are doctors - my cousin is married to a Sinti and his father is a respected doctor. Do the 'bad examples' have something to do with their culture? I don't know. If I would know it, I would probably write some books about it, and get a ton of money. - I guess enoug right wingers already do just that, writing stuff about it and making money.

    What I do know however - I mean I love history after all! Is that for the longest time a lot of (extreme) right wingers, nationalists, so called 'patriots' etc you name it, always have a field day in making a conection between cultures when it comes to pointing out deficiences with certain groups and ethnicites, like crime, poverty, ignorance, hygene etc. But ignoring the shortcomings and deficiencies in their own culture. But when ever you point it out, you often get the argument well, then they are not pure, a 'true' Scotsman, would never live/do something like that!

    No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample


    Since when has it become out of fashion to blame the irish for everything anyway?


    Maybe you don't have illegal villages among 'pure' Slovakians, but I am pretty confident that you have your fare share of criminal families engaging in various illegal and questinonable activities, like drug trafficking, prostiution and all sorts of crime, is that a trait that can be attributed to east european culture now, in particular the Slovakian one? Again, I would say absolutely not.

    Certain right wingers here in Germany, do love to make that conection though in their eyes, organised crime is a typical east european thing. For them we (since I am not a true German in their eyes) are a filthy bunch of people, and I belong to a culture of lazy, uneducated, criminals and who can blame them? Most Serbians I know are enducated, backwards and yeah, iliterate. But has that something to do with Serbian culture now? I don't think so. Particularly when I remember that you really have to just move 2 maybe 1 generation back, and you get to the Naziregime. The Germans sure proved how superior their culture was! Very advanced and refined. Their Soldiers acted like true gentlemens in Poland. Slovakia was also ruled by communists, one of the most inhumane systems that has ever existed. I am sure you know enough people that could tell you stories about secret police, torture etc. all done by Slovakians on other Slovakians. Again is that telling us anything about Slovakian culture?

    So what of this exactly, has to do with 'culture' and what is simply human nature? Where do you draw the line, and is that even possible? Cultures have no value for it self if we don't put it in some context, like a historic narrative and the environment people grew up with, just as how weapons for themselfs are just objects and become only dangerous depending on who's wielding it. Only people commit crimes, not cultures, so it very heavily depends on what people decide to do. No individual Germany nor is German culture today responsible for anything the Nazis did in the 1930s and 40s. Hence why you can not blame a culture, but only individuals for their actions. If I decide tomorrow to rape a child or burn down a house full of Germans, than it isn't the 'serbian culture' or my 'balkan herritage' which comanded me to do it. Obviously this becomes a bit more complicated when you're talking about political ideologies or religion even, but you can decide to join some Waffen-SS-Fanclub or some antisemitic group, but when it comes to cultures or religions you're usually born in to them. But even here, as an adult it is up to you to decide if you want to follow the laws an rules of the society or if you decide to reject them.

    Maybe the village you're talking about, is simply full of assholes.


    Look, you're missunderstand me - I guess. All you're doing, what you did the whole time, is describing the CURRENT SITUATION. Which I do not denny! Yes parallel societies exist.

    What I am asking you right now is why you make a conection between Roma/Sinti culture and the behaviour of the communities/villages you're talking about. How is their culture the cause for it? How is it related? What seppeartes the criminal 'gipsy' from the criminal 'slovak' in your opinion? The fact that one is eating dogs in his village full of clan members and the other one runs a prostitution ring from a bar while wearing a fancy suit?


    This hasn't something to do with you in particular, but something I also don't understand with the extreme/alt right is how, when it comes to wealth and rellocation it's always about liberty, personal responsibilty, and preventing handouts. When it comes to crime though, that completely changes and suddenly it's about culture, communities and ethnicities. So when it comes to success, it's about individualism a rightwinger is reponsible for his own success and wealth, but when it comes to crimes, it's about generalisation, however never when it comes to odds working against you like growing up in poverty, suffering from inequality, bad education etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  5. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Sorry, I can't understand you either.
     
  6. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Willfully ignoring anti-Irish, Polish, Italian, Jewish etc. discrimination is necessary to manufacture the 'white privilege' narrative. It'd get a lot broader support if they called it WASP privilege. I'm seldom consulted on these matters though.

    Fuck it, lump the Irish in with the white imperialists too, why not, they look the same.
     
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  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    How typical for an east european untermensch, tz tz tz :P.
     
  8. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Never talked to local gypsies, never studied their history from behind his desk, yet trying to explain how they live and why. Putting them on the same boat with fully integrated minorities in the process, well done.
     
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Uhm ... I thought I was clear that I talked about the people you mentioned, that unwashed villagers of yours runing your gloroius Slowakian empire. Also, you an expert on Roma/Sinti history or something? I am not an academic, where is your degree on it? You certainly seem to talk like you have one. What do you expect? That I take a ticket and travel to the village, to find out why they chose that life-style? I do not now THOSE PEOPLE IN PARTICULA. And I doubt that you're an expert on Sinti/Roma history.

    I'm sorry I don't judge people based on their culture but their actions :(.
     
  10. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    No need to be defensive, it's okay.
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    How is the assholery of the people in that criminal village of yours related to Sinti/Roma culture?
     
  12. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Entschuldigen sie mich bitte, ich verstehe nicht.
     
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Ok, fun is fun, now you're just trolling. Either answer the question or just leave it be - since I was serious this time.

    *Edit
    So I will simply ask again, how is the crime/illegal behaviour you described related to their culture? And if you can try to be specific.
     
  14. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    You are serious this time, I was serious before. What a shame..
     
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Does this here really need an intervention of a moderator? It doesn't seem that you're interested in a serious discussion.
     
  16. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Agreed.

    One of eastern Slovak cultural traditions is moonshining and drinking borovicka, Slovak national hard drink. Responsible for many crimes including violence, smuggling, or more banal things as tax frauds. Yes, since you can observe this behavioral pattern being repeated across many centuries, this is clearly our cultural trait and a very negative one.

    Prostitution and drug trafficking are social problems, not cultural trait. You won't find any prostitutes or drug dealers in most of our villages, they are concentrated in big cities. Also this is very modern phenomen without any trace in previous centuries or national history, so this is not one of our cultural traits by definition. You show disturbing lack of basic knowledge what culture and society actually stands for and this is not the first time you're using such incorrect example.

    Military occupation, any military action, or foreign government is not a culture by its very definition. War is a clashing between societies, and society is not a culture. This is just another display of your own unfamiliarity with basic definitions.

    Yes, it is possible and has been done for more than a century, since human culture is defined by anthropologists as a set of learned behavioral patterns.

    Again the same mistake. Yes, because war is not part of any culture by its very definition.

    Wrong.
    When you look at any community, tribe, or state from whole world and observe their behavior for several centuries, you can clearly define their preferred form of entertainment, housing, food preparation, simply anything. Since it's a pattern learned generation by generation and actively repeated, it's by definition their culture. That's the main reason why your parrents haven't disappeared in nearby German forrest in order to build bumshack after migrating to Germany btw - since this behavioral pattern is not a part of their cultural heritage.

    Nope, you actually don't understand me - parallel societies exist due to cultural differences and, which is the point and which I wrote before you started this nonsese, people tend to form their social and political opinions thanks to very personal experience of these cultural differences. Positive or negative experience, mind you.

    How is it related you ask? Directly. Nomadic people used to travel freely for CENTURIES, used to live under blue sky, sing their traditional songs and dance their traditional dances around campfires, cannot be forced to leave this learned behavioral pattern (i.e. culture) just by some official command or legislative. These villages full of people refusing to integrate and preserving their own lifestyle are direct failed result of our legislative. Directly resulting in poor living conditions since these people are sabotaging the system from within. Which leads to very negative perceptions on both sides, because if you think right wingers are the only racist scum you're wrong again. Gypsies forced by the state to leave their traditional lifestyle hate whiteys passionately and many of them are just as racist as any neonazi you can imagine. You know - social and political belief formed accordingly to personal experience.
     
  17. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    IMO, the reason why Valcik bringing up gypsies or illegals in general is because leftists constantly DEFEND them. It seems as if being marginalized or illegal gives them some sort of special dispensation to be fucking assholes.

    Every time an illegal immigrant kills somebody, the left fucking runs their mouths about how illegals commit less crimes overall, as if that erases the fact that, had the illegal not fucking been in the country ILLEGALY, that death would not have happened in the first damned place. Every time we have a problem with illegal immigration, leftists claim its anti-immigration, PLEASE, CUT THAT SHIT OUT. It is anti ILLEGAL immigration.


    The left also LOVES to blame criminality on anything other than personal responsibility, which is annoying as fuck. It always they are poor, not that they are opportunistic fucks. Nobody stealing with good intentions should risk HARMING another person, not to mention increase their own jail time, by using a fucking weapon during the robbery or theft.

    You can't say that birth control and sex ed is important because that is racist, or infringing upon someones cultural or religious beliefs. Islam, like Christianity, is a pretty SAVAGE fucking religion and it deserves to be called such when it actively says homosexuals, or whomever deserves to die or burn in hell. The pope can eat a fucking dick when he talks about free shit but can't tell people to STOP FUCKING, or a least, USE BIRTH CONTROL.

    Of course, people are people, any race or person of any social standing or religious persuasion can be a criminal. However, the reason people like Valcik and I focus on illegal immigration is because bleeding heart leftists can't help but defend these assholes when, for fucks sakes, STOP DEFENDING THEM. The less the left defends them, the less attention they get, which is mostly BAD. Just let the law deal with them.

    If a crime or death could have been avoided because someone illegal wasn't kept out of the country, then it IS a problem of illegal immigration. If an illegal causes an accident and fucks over the other person because he doesn't have insurance, the solution is not 'free shit', but fix the fucking border.

    Just fucking be honest about that shit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
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  18. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    I seriously don't understand US' fuss with legal immigration from wherever in the world. It's legal.

    I do share the sentiment about illegal immigration. As much as I can sympathize with that particular sort of illegal immigrants who are just trying to escape from a war-torn shithole to find a better life, law is the law.
     
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  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Then why mix 'culture' into all of this when it should be about personal responsibility?

    That's what I am trying to say the whole damn time.

    Is it now a culture thing, or are people responsible for their own shit?
     
  20. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    I think what valcik was trying to say when he mentioned gypsy culture is that personal irresponsibility composes a large part of what modern gypsies are - naturally, when you have a large percentage of individuals in a group acting irresponsibly, it's only natural to label the whole group as irresponsible. That may be a wrong thing to do from a certain perspective as generalizations are usually a bad thing, but when such occurrence is massive over a long period of time, even statistics starts to favor the generalization. Individual perception of somebody from outside of the said group changes long before that.

    I'm not sure if labeling any of that as inherent part of gypsy culture is appropriate, but it is something that is strongly present within their groups and is an issue which is overlooked. Whether it's a cultural thing or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is a problem which is yet to be solved, and all the methods so far have proven to be ineffective.


    Then again, I could be wrong about my interpretation. Both of you wrote tons of shit, I was too lazy to read all of it.
     
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