Can the NCR survive much longer?

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by TheAmericanHedgehog, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    That's foolish because the Legion doesn't want Hoover Dam, it wants NCR territory. Hoover Dam is also necessary to provide the water, food, and electricty to provide NCR with enough of all to stave off famine. What they actually need is to destroy the Legion and recruit more troopers.

    As stated, Caesar's goal is not the Dam but to invade California.
     
  2. Apollyon

    Apollyon First time out of the vault

    Apr 29, 2017
    Defeating the Legion under F:NV conditions is impossible. Defeat at Hoover Dam inevitable. (If you do not agree I will gladly discuss that seperately)

    Initially giving up Hoover Dam will buy time and force Mr. House and the Families to reconsider their stance if they wish to remain independent. It's about forcing the hand of the other factions in the Mojave, lest they will continue to work against the NCR every step of the way. Hoover Dam is what is keeping the NCR stuck between a rock and a hard place. What scenario could you think of where the NCR could hold on to the Dam?
     
  3. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    The Legion is really impossible to win in any real life terms because it's a bunch of Luddite primitives attacking a modern industrialized army.

    The same situation which caused the NCR to hold it the first time, that Caesar's Legion is repulsed militarily. In this case, though, NCR will hold it on their own even without the Courier because Caesar has a tumor and even with General Oliver's idiocy, he will pass away and the Legion will break up without his cult of personality to keep it together. Indeed, it requires General Oliver's stupity to make it so NCR hasn't rolled over the Legion already. He's let them kill and harrass NCR's reinforcements and position with impunity when they could have otherwise have just smashed them.

    Honestly, if Caesar wanted to win, he'd not attack the Dam but attack the NCR's positions and logistics. Starve them out.
     
  4. peadar87

    peadar87 Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 4, 2015
    Yeah this is true. Although a lot of it is just people's opinions. You could find a lot of people in the US today who think that the government is in the pockets of big corporations, or that they are power-hungry socialists, or a million other things. I don't think we know enough to say that the NCR is done for. Without seeing what things are like first-hand in California, it could be just as likely that a recession mobilises the population to rebuild the system as that it tears the country apart.

    I'm not sure about this. There's definitely enough patriotism in the NCR to convince people to enlist. As the NCR is modelled on the 18th century US, I'd say a lot of them identify as New Californians first and foremost, and it would take more than a little instability to cause them to turn on it.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  5. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    No offense, but you're kind of talking out of your ass here. They are clearly shown in game to be capable of soundly defeating the Legion at the Second Battle of Hoover Dam even without the assistance of House or his reclaimed assets.

    It's possible that Caesar, Lanius, Vulpes, and that Praetorian head are all gone, which makes stability for the Legion questionable at best as they require continual conquest just to survive as a society. How many years would it take for them to recover--after losing hard, twice, without the leadership they depended on having being so thoroughly disgraced, their ideology called so thoroughly into question--assuming they can at all? Both Joshua Graham and Ulysses think it's doomed to fail, and who would know better than them? The people who embody everything that is wrong with the Legion? A brain cancer ridden Caesar? His sadistic, psychopathic, battle obsessed "culture hero"?

    Worse still, all of the resources that House had at his disposal could have been made available to them by the Courier. Which is itself is enough to hold Vegas according to House, who at the very least is a sound analyst of such matters. Moreover even without taking the Yes Man path as far as you can go, the Courier can have eliminated most of their problems which drained resources (BoS Mojave Chapter, Crimson Caravan Company/Van Graff Family conspiracy, Fiends, Khans, Kings, Powder Gangers; they can now levy taxes against the Casinos, change the laws to prevent their citizens from bankrupting themselves, water and power problems, etc) while bringing in new allies and resources. Even if the Legion wins, so long as you helped the Boomers then Caesar is too afraid to even try attacking them.

    Further, whose to say that further reform would not take place in the NCR? With the mojave under their control they would have an entirely new state of people, whose voices would help shape its future. We already know that they changed greatly between Fo1 and 2, and even more so between that and NV.

    Basically, while both diminish from the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam, if the NCR wins they can gain a shitload, and the Legion can lose a shitload. Last time I checked they didn't have anything which would suddenly allows them to outpace and then defeat the NCR, despite failing to do so twice, even when they had the upper hand and were functioning at a literal state of total war. There is no extra nth degree of effort for them to squeeze out. They can't make technological breakthroughs because of their ideology, and are strictly opposed to learning from others. What you see in game is them at their utmost. Whereas what you see of the NCR is a segment of it, poorly utilized, with massive room and capability for improvement.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  6. peadar87

    peadar87 Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 4, 2015
    I agree. The NCR is explicitly said to be suffering from poor management, bad luck and weak intelligence. Their best troops are away on another campaign in Baha. One of their potential supply routes from California just exploded one day, taking a load of their troops with it. Another got overrun with deathclaws when they took their eye off it for a moment. They have just come out of a decade-long war with the Brotherhood of Steel that must have strained their manpower and resources to the limit. The only thing that is going to happen to them is that the situation is going to improve.

    The Legion, on the other hand, is operating at pretty much peak capacity. They have only known victory, they've never had to fight an adversary capable of draining their strength. Their leadership is stable. All of their plots are going pretty much as well as they possibly could be.

    And in spite of all of that, Hoover Dam is at a deadlock. If things start going better for the NCR, and they could scarcely be going worse, they would have a clear advantage.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  7. Apollyon

    Apollyon First time out of the vault

    Apr 29, 2017
    No offense taken. I do not agree with your statements.

    1. Who succeeds Caesar upon his death is an interesting question, but there's plenty of able leadership within the Legion. You already named a few yourself, but since all promotions within the Legion are based on merit, we can safely state that any Centurion could take Caesar's place and do a reasonable job.

    2. Despite of what Ulysses and Graham may think or say, you cannot argue with the accomplishments of the Legion. The fact that Legion lands are safe and stable proves that they do not rely on conflict to thrive. Your argument that the Legion requires continual conflict is ungrounded.

    3. We should keep the Courier out of this discussion, if we want to keep it productive. Keep in mind the Courier could do anything. The Courier could also slaughter everyone in Camp McCarran with a baseball bat and assassinate President Kimball with an orbital laser.

    4. In what way should the NCR reform and why do you think this is possible?

    5. I disagree that the NCR stands most to gain. In fact, it's easily debunked. Most of the NCR's problems stem from it's overextension. NCR troops are spread out, undersupplied and logistical lines are overstretched. This is exactly the reason why a victory at a 2nd Hoover Dam cannot be exploited by the NCR. What would the NCR attack? Fortification Hill? It holds no strategic value. As a result of the Legion's methods, they can simply pack their things and move if the NCR tries to attack them. All they leave behind is a meaningless hill. The NCR has no chance of catching them as they have supply lines to worry about and borders to guard. The Legion has no such worries.
    The same cannot be said for the NCR, who have practically forced themselves to guard Hoover Dam with all they have, because it's too big a strategic target. Both due to overextension and the strategic value of Hoover Dam, the NCR is completely trapped in military terms and defeated strategically. This is why the NCR has to cut it's losses and regroup, instead of waiting for the inevitable to happen. Even a victory for the NCR at a 2nd Hoover Dam would not be a strategic victory, since it's the NCR that's struggling to put enough men on the frontline.

    1. Caesar's Legion is not Luddite. The Legion does not want to rely on technology, but uses it whenever it is useful. This is easily proven by the fact that almost all Legionaries carry small arms, there's a Howitzer at Fortification Hill and Caesar's Praetorians use Displacer Gloves. The Legion's philosophy is entirely different from wanting to destroy technology for the sake of it. The Legion believes reliance on technology is a weakness.

    2. Calling the NCR a modern industrialized army is an overstatement. Being a "modern" army goes further than wearing the same suits and using the same guns. Atleast they have the bureaucratic part of modern militaries down, I'll give them that.

    3. The idea that the Legion will break up when Caesar dies is ungrounded. As I've said in the reply above this one, the Legion has plenty of capable and proven leadership at it's disposal. Terms like 'cult of personality' are empty unless backed up by facts.

    4. What else can General Oliver do than let the Legion harass him? The NCR has it's hands tied by the Dam, which requires to be defended at all times. Consequently, the NCR has too few troops to guard it's borders and supply lines, thus cannot prevent them being harassed and cut off. Attacking the Legion is pointless, as they have no strategic objectives to defend. So really, what can the NCR do but sit and wait for the Legion to attack?

    5. The idea that a (slim) technological advantage decides who wins a war is ungrounded. The U.S. had huge technological advantages in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq (in all three wars strategic objectives have not been achieved), yet irregular warfare prevailed and made Goliath bow to David. The difference in size between the NCR and the Legion isn't nearly as big as in the aforementioned examples, making it even more unlikely that technology will bring them victory.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  8. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Caesar has brainwashed all of his troopers to believe he's a demigod, that he came up with the Roman Empire (which never existed according to the Legion), and he has instituted a code which is designed to keep them under his thumb as well as ignorant. You get a sense of this with the prisoner at the airport base as well as Caesar's causally dismissive attitude to them. Furthermore, House is as close to a ZAX computer as exists in human form as he says the Legion will collapse without Caesar.

    It's CAESAR who believes the Legion cannot continue without changing. It's why he wishes to conquer the NCR because he believes when they're conquered that the Legion will change to a more settled country. As it exists now, the Legion only is good for conquering and slaving.

    Focus on building agricultural and infrastructural support than expansion of territory. Consolidate.

    The Legion's troopers are the issue as Caesar's Legion is a cult of personality which cannot exist without him. Also, they can attack the Legion's own supply lines as Ulysses straight up says if the Legion loses one of their trade routes (which he intends to nuke) then it will wither and die.

    That is due to General Oliver as NCR has an entire airport of troops and a number of camps. They have an abundance of outposts too. There's no reason not to simply wipe the legion out one camp at a time rather than wait at the Dam--which is explictly called out as designed to make Oliver look good.

    They can use technology but without infrastructure, it's just a scavenger army.

    While they can't manufacture power armor or helicopters, they can do pretty much anything else. We have the Van Graffs supporting NCR and also the Gunrunners both manufacturing modernized weaponry.

    Again, the game says repeatedly it will break up and never says otherwise. The only person who says it will stay together is Boone. We also see the result of the Legion under Lanius is to burn and slaughter indiscriminately with nothing left to conquer.

    Attack the Legion, wipe them out. The game states General Oliver wants to improve his political position by winning a victory identical to the First Battle of Hoover Dam so he is literally WAITING for the Legion to attack it. This allows the Legion to nickel and dime attack his forces, weakening them little by little.

    A technological advantage is not a guarantee of victory but the advantages don't end there. The Van Graffs state tha NCR's economy is 3 times the size of the Legions.

    They can field more troops.

    They have more advanced weapons.

    They have better infrastructure.

    Just saying.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  9. Muff1n

    Muff1n First time out of the vault

    Apr 25, 2017
    Whit all that though nothing matter when you are being bled dry look at the soviets in Afgan in the 1980s they were better in every way the only issue for the soviets like the NCR is the will of the people and with low morale as seen throughout the game many wanting to go home, Forlorn Hope morale issues the will for war will drop that's why House wants Kimball alive since if he lives they will just see it as his foolish gambit to win big with the Dam as his goal. My best guess is that both will eventually succumb to their weakness and collapse it may not happen immediately Rome didn't fall in a day and neither will they.
    Also, no courier discussion considering they can do anything ex. my friend in his independent game blew up the hoover dam so he can catch the gnarliest wave and became a warlord over the Mojave afterward.
     
  10. Apollyon

    Apollyon First time out of the vault

    Apr 29, 2017
    What's your point?

    "Mr. House says so" is a non-argument.

    'Only good for conquering and slaving' is provably false, given the fact that they have provided stability and prosperity to a huge region. But your original point was that the Legion is "doomed to fail", based on what Ulysses and Graham said. Now you change your argument to 'Caesar believes the legion will change', which I don't agree with. If anything that speaks in favour of the Legion, as the force which can adapt, can survive.

    Agreed. For this they have to fix their overextension, because otherwise these improvements in argiculture and infrastructure would simply become targets they cannot protect.

    1. I disagree, but your 'cult of personality'-argument has nothing to do with who stands to gain most from a victory at Hoover dam.

    2. They have little hope of bringing the fight to the Legion. Firstly, they are overextended and thus pushing further will accentuate their logistical problems. Secondly, Caesar's Legion is expert in guerilla warfare, so pushing the war onto their turf will only make them comparatively stronger.

    3. There is no logic backing up the assumption that a loss of a number of trade routes would be disastrous for the Legion. The Legion's army is mostly nomadic and thus do not share the same reliance on logistics as the NCR does.

    4. Ulysses is a crazy fool who speaks only in metaphores. I don't see how his opinion would be worth more than that of anyone else in the Mojave.

    As I've stated, bringing the fight to the Legion would achieve nothing for the NCR. The Legion has strategic mobility, the NCR does not. When challenged at any one camp, the Legion can simply pack up their things and threaten the NCR elsewhere, losing nothing in the process. Meanwhile, the NCR is overextended and forced to protect it's borders and assets, thus cannot effectively keep up with the Legion's movements.
    Overextension, in military terms, means you cannot prove your troops with the bare minimum of supplies they need to operate. Out of bullets, out of food, out of water, in a desert. The NCR would be a sitting duck.


    If the 'modern industrialized army' of the NCR is being cornered by a 'scavenger army', what does that really say about the NCR?

    The NCR has a technological advantage, but the majority of it's troops is still outfitted with mediocre gear. The non-veteran rangers are even dressed in mere clothing. So whilst they may have the capabilities to create technologically superior equipment, they seem to lack the economical capacity to do so.


    The game is very much created from an NCR point of view. They are given more quests, fleshed-out characters, more settlements, followers etc. From the Legion's point of view the game is woefully unfinished, so it is not strange that we are presented with a one-sided image. We're presented with very little materiel about the Legion itself, but the information that we have points towards the Legion's territories being stable and prosperous. Unless we back up what characters say in-game with facts or logic, it holds very little value.

    I explained to you why attacking the Legion is not an option. Elaborate why you think the NCR can push forward whilst overextended and whilst being tied to the Dam, with no strategic objectives to take, against a foe which has proven itself superior tactically and strategically.
     
  11. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Eventually, Caesar will die of a tumor without the Courier and the Legion will collapse. However, even with all of Caesar's actions which will destroy New Vegas with poison gas and more, they still launch a foolish all-out-assault on Hoover Dam which will result in the Legion being repulsed.

    Mostly because I put my money on the NCR Rangers vs. Lanius which will happen if the PC isn't there.

    It will, however, be a pointless bloody victory.

    Nevertheless, that's what we have to go by as just because it's not equal doesn't mean it's not true.

    Also, if we accept what Raul says about the Legion being stable why should we discard what House says about the Legion collapsing?
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  12. Muff1n

    Muff1n First time out of the vault

    Apr 25, 2017
    The NCR plan honestly doesn't seem too concrete either considering that Hanlon says that they will take it but with heavy losses, however, Hanlon may be depressed and has a grim outlook on the war considering he's seen the worst of it but then again he is the man who helped the NCR win the first battle.
     
  13. Apollyon

    Apollyon First time out of the vault

    Apr 29, 2017
    There is a world of difference between experiencing something first hand and prophecising the future with calculations based on assumptions. Those two aren't even remotely comparable.

    You've been saying this, and coining terms like 'cult of personality', but you've never presented a solid argument as to why the Legion's leadership would be unable to put forth a leader in the case of Caesar's death.

    I've presented you with arguments as to why I believe that wouldn't happen, so it's pointless to repeat your stance without presenting arguments for the contrary.
     
  14. peadar87

    peadar87 Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 4, 2015
    The real Roman Empire was to a large extent reliant on conquest for its strength and prosperity for long periods of its existence. When they finally stopped expanding and plundering they went into decline. The same could well apply to the legion. They're an amalgamation of tribes, which suggests a fairly undeveloped industrial base. The bulk of their weapons and ammunition are going to be scavenged. Which is fine, so long as they keep expanding and exploiting new scavenging grounds, but if they are stopped, their supply of materiel dries up, and they are going to need to start production. They're probably several decades behind the NCR in this respect.

    As for holding the Dam, the river and canyon system are pretty much as good as it gets in terms of natural fortifications. It would be extremely difficult for either the Legion or the NCR to get significant numbers of troops across without the other noticing, and if you get noticed crossing the river, you have to cross under fire. Which is one of the main reasons the legion are fighting for the dam, in my opinion. The bridges are almost certainly out (otherwise they would be strategically important enough to at least merit a mention in-game), so the dam is the only way for either side to move large numbers of troops across the river. At the moment, the dam isn't really controlled by either side. The NCR hold the dam itself, but the eastern side opens into a killzone beneath Fortification Hill.

    What the NCR should be doing is securing their supply lines by smashing the powder gangers, starving the Fiends out of West Vegas, and using the troops this frees up to fortify the western shore of the Colorado so the Legion can't raid the Long 15. Once they have control of the Mojave, don't expand any more. Consolidate. Build up the railways and roads so troops can be moved quickly to wherever the Legion might try to strike. Once you're secure on your bank of the river, you can do to the legion what they've been doing to you. Move quickly up and down the border. Cross where you won't be seen. Cause some chaos. Fall back before you're caught.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  15. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    The Afgani people were being expensively trained and supplies with American military hardware. They were losing to Russia before then. Which makes it a proxy war. Not a good example. No one is bankrolling the Legion campaign.
     
  16. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    You're actually describing yourself.

    This idea that the Legion has stability is based on a single anecdote from a glorified repairman, who would have been killed on sight. How did he even get 'hands on experience' exactly? As opposed to the Legion's former military commander, one of its most capable and high ranked fruumentari*, who were literally and practically with the Legion from the beginning respectively, as well as a man who can single handedly outwit both the Legion and the NCR.

    Also to coin something is to come up with it, so referring to the Legion as a cult of personality is not inventive--it's actually just an accurate delineation. Check a dictionary. He literally claims to be a god. When a head of state forces their entire country to worship them as a deity it goes so far beyond just a cult of personality, and becomes a cult/religion. Having dogma dictate national policy is not good for stability. Imperial Japan, North Korea, Soviet Russia, all concrete examples. Humans also tend to get messed up when they're prevented from having a family structure. Let alone what crushing misogyny does to a country's future. So whether we go by canonically informed opinions, or go by objective markers that we can relate to the real world--the Legion is unstable.

    *How is his alleged craziness a factor exactly? Where does his description of reality diverge from it? Or does he just have an esoteric philosophy, and confusing motivations? I mean, No-bark Noonan is loonier than a bag of hammers, and yet he's the most informed person in Novac. He knows about Benny, the actually crazed nightkin, Boone's wife and that he's hiding something, the ghouls at Repconn, possibly the tunnelers (mole men). Or what about that nutjob Mobius? This idea that 'crazy' people can just be dismissed isn't just stigmatizing, it's not even right according to the logic of the game.

    Before or after they loss the first battle of Hoover Dam? We've already explained that the NCR is not fighting at their best, but in their first encounter they bested a larger army through strategy. Guerrilla warfare includes their only actual strategy (more on that soon), and it doesn't favor large engagements. It's what allows the small to defeat the large through attrition. Which is why when it comes to the second battle of Hoover Dam, there is no Legion strategic advantage. Especially when their tactics center around inferior equipment. Seriously, you want to claim pitting spears against snipers is a good tactic? Or what about wearing armor that only works against cold weapons, against a foe that almost exclusively uses ballistics? Why do they even want to fight at the Dam in a large battle? They don't even employ an actual strategy in either of those battles. Their entire plan in those fights is to throw cannon fodder at the enemy, because they condition and indoctrinate their soldiers enough to carry out kamikaze attacks. Which itself barely even constitute a tactic. So in point of fact they both lack strategy and tactics. Consult a dictionary again if you're confused as to what constitutes either militarily.

    That, as we've been saying, the Legion is fighting at its best, and the NCR basically at its worst--and it's still locked in a dead heat at the start of the game. Which is why it can literally go either way...in game.

    Except that's not what actually happens...in game, vis a vis Nelson or Cottonwood Cove...or freaking Fortification Hill where you can kill Caesar, Lucious (spelling?), and Vulpes if you haven't already along with scores of legion solders (which if the condensed game scale is any indication represents magnitudes more). Also how does becoming mobile not gain the NCR this "strategic mobility" (??) they lack? Let alone how becoming the invader to an occupying power doesn't reverse the situation. The Legion would lose guerilla warfare, since they have this allegedly 'stable region' to maintain. While the NCR could pick it up, eliminating the issue of over extension while foisting it onto the Legion.

    It also brings up a dichotomy. If it is stable then they need to have static forces, which means vulnerabilities and the aforementioned tactical reversal. Historically no level of repression has ever eliminated crime. Clearly that doesn't work in terms of human nature. Law enforcement at minimum is needed. Also while I'm on the subject of oppression, guess what that breeds? Revolution, again a point against stability. You can't eliminate all outside threats mercilessly without breeding problems at home, the fifth column as it were.

    Regardless if they were to retain their guerrilla tactics that would mean no static forces. If that's the case then they don't hold the land for shit, and it's definitely not stable. Which would actually be even worse for the Legion b/c then the Republic could use hit and run tactics without repercussion. Since the NCR would have static targets filled with vital resources--provided the Legion doesn't rely on conquest/forward momentum/plunder, which according to you they don't--without any such vulnerabilities in that same territory. Worse still the NCR could dig in, since the towns would be effectively unguarded if they used geurilla tactics.

    Hell, with all the slaves the NCR could free, and families reunited they could easily turn it into a proxy war; recruiting former Legion or those living under their reign to fight against the oppressors. Equip and train, it's very cost effective especially with locals (harder for enemy to distinguish hostiles, aids in espionage). In any of these scenarios, if they were reliant on plunder then they would be at an even greater loss. As just losing Vegas a second time would mean expending everything they worked for (note that Lanius complains too much was already taken from the Eastern campaign for Vegas), and would need to start another new war just to get resources to fight the NCR.

    It's not unfounded, it's just not the only factor. They had a much lower casualty rate than the enemy in each of those cases. Showing that technology does in fact confer an advantage. They were also invading and fighting locals with the intent to leave, not defending against a second nation attempting to annex the territory they already occupied. Also all of them were proxy wars to varying extents. With the second two also involving the militias they had just gotten through training, radicalizing, and equipping. Generally it's viewed that Vietnam is the first televised war. Which lead to public outcry which brought wars they were capable of winning to an end. This persisted as a factor to the present, but isn't one in the events of NV. If anything those examples are testament to domestic conditions, not battle conditions. Basically every other aspect of those wars doesn't work as an example. As far as technology conferring an advantage, the first point about casualties demonstrates that it's a fact. Though it really should go without saying. No one is suggesting that the more advanced army always wins. There's even a good in game example with the NCR annihilating the BoS.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  17. YeeCop

    YeeCop Just a Sweet Irradiated Transvestite

    Jan 26, 2017
    Well even if you talk to Caesar (a former NCR citizen, the irony) he'll tell you that he saw the NCR turn into an ugly bureaucratic dictatorship, where politicians are bought out by brahmin barons, and it's ultimately just a collective of rich fucks who care about themselves. Not to say his opinion really matters, but you know.
     
  18. YeeCop

    YeeCop Just a Sweet Irradiated Transvestite

    Jan 26, 2017
    Lanius does not know how to lead a neo-Roman empire; he only knows how to lead men into battle. He is nothing more than a battle chieftain. If Caesar were to die, Lanius would be an incapable leader as he has no love to the Legion, only Caesar. He would bring the Legion to its end.
    The men of the Legion follow Caesar, not his ideals. Out of everyone in the Legion, Caesar is the most educated in military tactics, political science, all the smarts required to efficiently rule a nation. The men of the Legion only know the minimum because it was taught by them. They know only what they, as subservients, need to know. They're not intellectuals.
    Caesar had a greater dream for the Legion: were the Legion to win at Hoover Dam and liberate Vegas, he could turn the Legion from a motley band of former tribals to an empire. He suggests he would reform the customs of the Legion, possibly removing slavery, crucifixitions, all that sort of thing.
    With Caesar dead, even if Lanius lead the Legion into victory and took Hoover Dam/New Vegas, it would be a dead end after that. Any centurion or any joker put on the throne would never realize Caesar's dream, and the Legion would crumble away.
     
  19. Apollyon

    Apollyon First time out of the vault

    Apr 29, 2017
    1. False. There are numerous characters in F:NV who confirm that Legion lands are safe and stable. Dale Barton would be another, who is also speaking out of experience. Cass would be another who confirms safety of Legion lands.
    There you have it, one speaks of first-hand experience, the other is an enemy of the Legion who admits their lands are safer than the NCR's.

    2. It's not about using the term, it's about using the term as an argument without backing it up with facts. In other words, saying "Caesar's Legion is just a cult of personality." is an empty statement irrelevant to this discussion, unless you back it up with facts detailing how it influences the Legion. Those 'facts' tend to boil down to "They follow the man, not the ideals.", which is again, an empty statement. Present substance, because I am getting tired of having to repeat myself over and over.

    3. National stability is the will of a nation's people to follow it's leader, or their likeliness/capability to rebel. In all the examples you gave, plus in the case of the Legion, there is no voice of rebellion, thus there is stability. Imperial Japan is actually a shining counter-argument to everything you have claimed so far.

    4. The Legion lacking family structure is nonsense. The Legion becomes the familiy. It works like that in many modern armies.

    5. "What crushing misogyny does to a country's future." -> Explain to me what, why and how, because this smells like another empty statement which cannot be backed up with facts.

    6. What people say, think or feel cannot be used as a constructive argument unless it's backed up by facts. You don't see me pointing at every individual that has something bad to say about the NCR and using it as an argument in this discussion, do you? Because I can't be bothered with a "He says, she says" discussion. So if you'd kindly return the favour.

    You're the one mixing up tactics and strategy:

    Tactics is the way military units are deployed and manoeuvred in battle.
    Tactics serve to accomplish operational goals, which in turn serve to accomplish strategic goals.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tactics


    Strategy is the overarching plan with which to give military engagements direction and a common goal.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy

    The NCR defeated the Legion at the First Battle of Hoover Dam through a trap. This is tactics.
    Guerilla warfare is a way of deploying and manoeuvring your forces, again, this is tactics.
    When you talk about Hoover Dam, again you're referring to the tactical engagement of troops.

    So take your cunty attitude elsewhere and consult the dictionary yourself before telling others to do so.

    1. I'm not going to discuss game mechanics with you.

    2. Because strategic mobility is something entirely different from tactical mobility. The NCR is overextended and it's territory is under pressure from many angles. It cannot afford to move troops away from it's own strategic resources. Furthermore, because of their overextension and the state of NCR logistics, they cannot hope to achieve the same level of mobility the Legion can, who are nomadic and require little to no supply lines.
    Lets for the sake of argument say that the NCR would expedition into Legion territory. What would they find? Civilians who are hardy enough to engage them in guerilla warfare. Nothing else. Their only strategic target would be civilians and villages. The Legion on the other hand can sever NCR supply lines and take strategic objectives like the Dam, which would severely impair the NCR army ability to function. They'd be bled dry.

    3. Having stable territory does not impair a nation's ability to wage guerilla war, as proven in Vietnam.

    4. Expeditioning with their army does not solve the NCR's overextension. Obviously. It's not even a real option. Expeditioning with an army would leave too much weaknesses for the Legion to exploit. The moment the NCR leaves Hoover Dam, the Legion takes it. Let's say they trade: NCR takes Fortification Hill, the Legion takes the Dam. The NCR gets a useless hill, the Legion gets the NCR's primary strategic asset in the region. It's not even close who would be the winner in this scenario.

    5. This is a false assumption. Look at Vietnam for proof of the contrary.

    6. How is this relevant to your argument?

    7. Again, how is this relevant, and how would this problem only plague the Legion, as the NCR is guilty of it's fair share of oppression? Discontent is rife within the NCR. Yet when speaking with characters in the Legion they all are grateful for the civilization the Legion brought to their tribes.

    8. The Legion doesn't need to hold their own territories. You're envisioning a conflict where the NCR is taking Legion towns and the Legion is just standing at a distance twiddling their thumbs. It's much more likely that as soon as the NCR'd make a thrust forward into Legion territories, the first thing the Legion would do is sever their supply lines, which would render them helpless. It all ties into overextension and not being able to protect their vulnerabilities.
    You're proposing the NCR sit on a worthless Legion town while giving the Legion the opportunity to ransack and destroy all the NCR's strategic resources. The NCR just has much, much more to lose for such a concept to be worth considering.

    9. Yes, using an army of malnourished women, old and weak to fight instead of the overextended and undersupplied, demoralized NCR army sounds like a great idea. They'd probably do a better job at it too.


    Then we are in agreement on this. The reason I brought this up is because people often point to the NCR's technological advantage as the reason the NCR would win. Technology is only one part of military power and a strength in one part does not compensate a weakness in the other.
     
  20. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    A) I'll grant Dale Barton, I did forget about him. Though he is a trader who is supplying the military, meaning he travels, benefits directly, and is specifically protected. Either way he would have less experience than JG and Ulysses. Cass has even less first hand experience than Raul. He actually said he's been there. Last time I checked Cass is giving second hand info as she understands it.

    B) Could you be more esoteric? Or at least stop projecting your own shortcomings onto me? Please and thanks. Seriously an entire paragraph just to say I haven't 'sufficiently substantiated' my claim that the Legion is a cult of personality. Even though that's basically the foundational concept. Either way let's get technical, since apparently consulting a dictionary is too difficult.
    Cult of Personality "A situation where a leader (often a dictator) has been falsely idolized and made into a national or group icon and is revered as a result."
    He is not a god. He is idolized as a god. He has made himself into a national icon, and is revered as a result. A fact, at least in the empirical sense, is an independently verifiable observation. Every time I reference a facet of the game, say Caesar declaring himself the Son of Mars, I am providing a fact.

    C) Oh good grief, you're just skimming. That's part of 'national stability', though I'd have to say the economy is also a factor, the management of farm land, really it's a bit bigger than 'the likelihood of obeying leadership'. A nation can be unstable without revolution, particularly if their government fails to provide basic things.

    "Having dogma dictate national policy is not good for stability", is what I said when I referenced Imperial Japan. Maybe you recall that it doesn't exist anymore? Or how Soviet Russia collapsed, and how both it and North Korea couldn't/can't maintain the basic necessities of life or avoid regularly going to war against their own people? If you want revolution specifically I could actually just rewind the clock on both of those examples, to when they were created.

    "In all the examples you gave, plus in the case of the Legion, there is no voice of rebellion"
    You seriously think there's no rebellion in North Korea? So all the people fleeing from it and getting locked up in concentration camps, they're just like 'yeah it was time to move on'?!? Also Silus, Ulysses, Joshua Graham, and that whole thing where we don't get to see Legion territory--well that's convenient for your argument. Though given what humans have always done historically in response to unstable, oppressive regimes that demand absolute obedience, are we really going to pretend like the null position is cautious optimism? Any historian would be laughing their asses off.

    D)
    XD
    wow
    just wow
    I don't even think you believe that would work. That even in the most semantic, pedantic, nebulous sense--that raising children in an army, as a recruit, is the same as having an actual family raise a child in an actual communiity. Or at the very least I have to, because the level of naivete I would have to assume if you were being sincere would just be brutally insulting.

    E) ...you're wondering why being as terrible as you can be, to literally half the population, would necessarily be a bad thing? How limiting half your labor pool and your talent pool to being slaves might hold a country back?
    https://www.usaid.gov/what-we-do/gender-equality-and-womens-empowerment

    F) Ah, very pretentious, and you followed it up by using wikipedia links to unwittingly demonstrate that you still don't understand either term.

    The NCRs strategy at the first battle of hoover dam was to disorganize their foe, compel them into a hasty forward march, in order to lure them into a trap. There isn't a single tactic in that sentence. The tactics they used were: placing sniper on high ground, in a position capable of sighting the officers at the back of the Legion formation; ordering them to specifically target said officers, laying bombs inside Boulder, and a false retreat.

    "So take your cunty attitude elsewhere and consult the dictionary yourself before telling others to do so."
    Oh, muffin.

    G) "1. I'm not going to discuss game mechanics with you."
    So basically you want facts, but you will not discuss them. That actually explains everything.

    H) "Because strategic mobility is something entirely different from tactical mobility."
    True, each describes the capacity to move something. Tactical is movement under fire. Operational is movement of soldiers and/or gear to some part of the battlefield. Strategic is movement of an army to the theatre. Obviously both NCR and Legion maintain tactical mobility in most conflict situations, so it's not worth mentioning. Technically operational mobility is more salient to the point, since we're only talking about mobility in terms of skirmishing. Whether by the Legion against the NCR, or the reverse after the 2nd battle of Hoover dam. And strategic just means getting their asses there. As in literally what they did during the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam. Really all I'm talking about is continuing what is specifically the ending of the game. The NCR taking their army to Legion territory, wherein they will do battle.

    "The NCR is overextended and it's territory is under pressure from many angles. It cannot afford to move troops away from it's own strategic resources. Furthermore, because of their overextension and the state of NCR logistics, they cannot hope to achieve the same level of mobility the Legion can, who are nomadic and require little to no supply lines."

    I refer you to exhibits A through Z, where I explained in exquisite detail how that exact situation can be resolved...in the post you are replying to. Seriously, do I need to quote you telling me not to be obtuse so you can see that you really need a mirror?

    "Lets for the sake of argument say that the NCR would expedition into Legion territory. What would they find? Civilians who are hardy enough to engage them in guerilla warfare. Nothing else. Their only strategic target would be civilians and villages.The Legion on the other hand can sever NCR supply lines and take strategic objectives like the Dam, which would severely impair the NCR army ability to function. They'd be bled dry."

    Lets say for the sake of argument that I didn't just go through each possible scenario of defense, exposing the flaws which you have yet to address on an even cursory level. Oh wait, you just did. Still waiting to hear which one you're committing to.

    Also you basically just admitted that the Legion doesn't farm (ranch) for jack, has no supply lines (so what's with the caravans?), lives not just a subsistence lifestyle but a hunter gatherer one. Which begs the question of how they have towns in your mind. As well as how that works in game when they clearly have brahmin, and caravans. Or how that would ever be a stable society. Really just all of the points Ive raised without getting a real rebuttal for.

    "4. Expeditioning with their army does not solve the NCR's overextension. Obviously. It's not even a real option. Expeditioning with an army would leave too much weaknesses for the Legion to exploit."

    Except for the part where I already solved overextension vis a vis literally things you can do in game. As in canon events. Facts, remember? Also, on the one hand according to you skirmishing is a perfect unassailable move, but on the other hand it's terrible? You can't define the nature and mechanics of a move based on who's making it. If plainsmen come riding into colorado on horseback using Gengis Khans hit and run tactics, and the Legion then copied them--it wouldn't arbitrarily have different strengths and weaknesses. It's the same thing. The Legion literally trains their soldiers not to think, until they become officers (and even then...), disavows science (the method of discovery), education and academia in general, and kills people for talking back. The NCR promotes education, allows questioning, and science. If anyone can learn the moves of their enemy of the two, it is not the Legion. They already learned how to fight the Enclave, the BoS, any number of raiders, tribals, and factions in between. The Legion has only ever steamrolled over uneducated disorganized tribals, until--despite throwing their entire society into the pursuit of war they lost, and with the NCR ending, twice.

    "The moment the NCR leaves Hoover Dam, the Legion takes it. Let's say they trade: NCR takes Fortification Hill, the Legion takes the Dam. The NCR gets a useless hill, the Legion gets the NCR's primary strategic asset in the region. It's not even close who would be the winner in this scenario."

    The moment the Legion is defeated at the second battle of hoover dam, they will need years to rebuilt their army. The same exact way they did last time. Only this time they overextended themselves into the east (paraphrasing Lanius). So with what exactly are they going to take it with? And what convenient replacement will arrive to replace Lanius that can hold it all together despite the fact that we've already seen what happens when they suddenly lose much of their leadership (1st battle of hoover dam).

    I) "5. This is a false assumption. Look at Vietnam for proof of the contrary.
    6. How is this relevant to your argument?
    7. Again, how is this relevant, and how would this problem only plague the Legion, as the NCR is guilty of it's fair share of oppression? Discontent is rife within the NCR. Yet when speaking with characters in the Legion they all are grateful for the civilization the Legion brought to their tribes."

    5) Incorrect, they still had law enforcement, and beyond the line ordinary settlements. And again, that was a proxy war where the Vietcong were supplied by another country. 6) B/c it necessitates a minimum of static forces to maintain law and order. Cops offer a target that would further destabilize settlements if attacked. If there are additional forces in towns, then those are also static forces. 7) The reason you don't hear ungrateful Legion people (except Silus, Ulysses, Joshua Graham) is because they tend to kill them. Seriously, you can barely if at all criticize Caesar without him trying to murder you. It's not strictly a Legion problem, but putting half your population in rape slavery, and threatening the other half with torture and murder if they don't become efficient killing machines is infinitely more oppressive than anything the NCR has done let alone continues to do at any appreciable scale. Unless you're insane, it's better living in a country where you have rights. Countries where people have no rights tend to have revolutions. In fact that's basically the universal impetus.

    "8. The Legion doesn't need to hold their own territories. You're envisioning a conflict where the NCR is taking Legion towns and the Legion is just standing at a distance twiddling their thumbs. It's much more likely that as soon as the NCR'd make a thrust forward into Legion territories, the first thing the Legion would do is sever their supply lines, which would render them helpless. It all ties into overextension and not being able to protect their vulnerabilities.
    You're proposing the NCR sit on a worthless Legion town while giving the Legion the opportunity to ransack and destroy all the NCR's strategic resources. The NCR just has much, much more to lose for such a concept to be worth considering."

    I actually never mentioned setting up supply lines in Legion territory. At minimum I spoke of hit and run tactics for the sake of attrition. As in guerilla warfare. What I'm envisioning is a post defeat Legion who isn't magical, and again I refer you to your own words 'where are the facts?' You can't just say 'they'd instantaneously cut supply lines and take the dam' without a b/c attached to those statements. Whereas I actually worked through each scenario, and the logical conclusions thereof. I'm seriously starting to think the Legion is a superhero to you, in the same way a father is to their preschool child.

    "9. Yes, using an army of malnourished women, old and weak to fight instead of the overextended and undersupplied, demoralized NCR army sounds like a great idea. They'd probably do a better job at it too."
    Ah, so this is about me bashing your Legion fan club. Good to know, thinking I've just about wasted all the time I should on this 'discussion'.

    J) Tech. Yes we agree that as it concerns technology the NCR has the advantage.

    I would further add that this extends to non-military technology. Namely medicine which improves mortality rates (supply of new soldiers), lifespan (lifelong productivity), and quality of life (broad impacts). As well as manufacturing and farming, which means they can out produce the Legion on an equivalent strip of land, bearing in mind that they already have more arable land and people. Which is to say that the NCR can get stronger within its existing borders. While the Legion is capped. They can only ever get back to their previous strength. Or use conquest to expand the total size of their army and, since apparently they live entirely off the land without working it, to expand any of their total resources. The Legion has to get much bigger which means expending men they just lost to the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam and their eastern campaign, in order to gain more. On both counts they're destined to lose the race.