Do you know when the Fallout world diverged from our own? The answer will surprise you!

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Risewild, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Oops. I meant theropods and not tyrannosaurids. Serves me right for trying to use an automated typing thing, so I can post larger posts without much pain :lmao:.
    Mistake fixed, thanks for catching it. :postviper:
    I was just checking a TTW bug report a user submitted. It was in the Museum of History Entrance cell. Where the skeleton is located. So I decided to take a closer look at it. And it has 3 fingers on each hand.
     
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  2. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Anyone who brings up Allosaurus gets a +
    It's something I've learned since I was a kid and angry at Jurassic Park inacuracies. If someone can casually mention Allosaurus or any non-superstar dinosaur, I'm happy with that. Then casually bring up Theropod, you get ++
    Next level, you casually talk about Coelurosaurid divergence, Maniraptorids, Pennaraptorans
    Explode-brain level, you talk about "stem avialans"
    and you-just-went-too-damn-far, you talk about "non avian dinosaurs"

    I got one on my Twitter, he's all "new theropod found!"
    *some stem-sparrow from German Miocene*

    Sigh, yeah, okay, goddamnit, yes, technically it's a theropod, sure, but, goddamnit guys -_-
     
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  3. Black Rose

    Black Rose Bring me to life

    Dec 5, 2018
    All my times going to and from Underworld I forgot there was even a dinosaur in there, lol. Good catch.
     
  4. Squadcar

    Squadcar Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jun 1, 2018
    I knew about Jurassic Park's inaccuracies as a kid and still loved it. I just loved looking at dinosaurs. Still do. Dinosaurs are cool as fuck.
     
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  5. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    There is also another skeleton, underwater in Point Lookout, under a buoy. I like to think it must be an easter egg reference, to something that I have no idea what it is. Because there is the skeleton, a couple military ammo boxes, a lever action rifle, a human skeleton and a safe containing military loot all clumped together there.
    Here is a quick screen I just took of it (we can clearly see the three fingers on each hand too):

    One thing I just thought. For people who love lore. We can now say for sure that it is possible for Bethesda's Fallout games to happen in a different universe than classic Fallout games. Since the classic games only had a divergence from our world after WW2 (canon in the classics) and B's Fallouts had a divergence since the Cretaceous. So it is possible that it is a different universe after all, but it had a similar evolution to the classic Fallout during most of human history.

    There, I ended the pain Bethesda inflicted to lore lover's all over the IP. :lmao:
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
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  6. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    I knew it. No seriously, all bluff aside, what was this first divergence after WW2?
    Afraid I forgot since pre-war history would be better unknown, and of no interest, to fallout characters for the most part.
     
  7. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    It is unknown. The devs left it unknown on purpose.
    Here is the divergence explanation on the Fallout Bible:
     
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  8. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Oh man that's right. If only Bethesda followed this philosophy instead of going crazy on pre-war, 'communists' and america... Guess it seemed easier to them. Thanks, Risewild.
     
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  9. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Yeah, Bethesda is obsessed with the pre-war world. Which is exactly the opposite of what the original creators "philosophy" was.

    For Bethesda, the pre-war world is the most important thing. For the original devs, the pre-war world is just background story.
    The past is not important, what matters is the present.
     
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  10. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix 4 INT Legionary

    Jun 25, 2018
    ^ this

    Applied to both real life and Fallout, the above makes things better.
     
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  11. Squadcar

    Squadcar Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jun 1, 2018
    I mean, it's easy to miss an original philosophy or even thematically stay in touch with a series when the "theme" of your games is listening to 50s music and shooting Orcs with rusty rifles and silly junk cannons. The Bethesda games teach these lessons:
    1. War is bad
    2. Mutants are bad except for one or two of them in your local area.
    3. People aren't always nice
    4. Loot, shoot, craft!

    Sure, Fallout was always silly at points, but there were a lot of serious tones there. I once went on a rant to someone in a gaming group on Facebook and everyone finally understood why I like the older Fallouts more. For the first time, they saw I wasn't being an elitist for the sake of it. I pointed out several themes and ideas that I personally took away from Fallout and how they were either misconstrued or just went against them in the opposite direction in Bethesda Fallout games.
     
  12. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    There is also lesson 5:
    'Communism' is the worst form of evil that ever existed.

    I give bethesda that they tried to be more satiric than patriotic, I think, but the way everyone in the wastes is supposed to know what 'communism' was in america's mind like if they were time travelers from the cold war, it become ridiculous fast, to be polite. And I am not convinced that everyone see this portrayal as a satire or such.

    And did america's ennemies even pretend to be communists during the great war? It was never said, all we know is that China invaded Alaska from Fallout 1 intro, period. It's not even said if China was the main ennemy or such, let alone if they were 'communists'.

    Sorry, as much as I could endure dumb mutants and the brotherhood with a few mind's tricks during bethesda 3, all their pre-war trips was too much for me to endure. If a apocalypse has any interest, it's to wipe the slate clean at least.
    Last year I was thinking that New Vegas had too much pre-war going on, I still do, but I now realize they were very subtle compared to bethesda. I can only wonder if Vegas would have had that much pre-war and so many clear references to america, china and 'communists', if bethesda/zenimax weren't the so called IP's owners.
     
  13. Squadcar

    Squadcar Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jun 1, 2018
    I mean the divergence apparently happened after WWII and the Cold War never ended. I think it's not ridiculous to assume that Russia and China turned out in economic and political structure to be communistic.

    I mean, yeah it did, but it was the way it was handled is the difference to me. Fallout might have always had the theme of letting go of the past but New Vegas really hammered down on that theme specifically. No questions about it.
     
  14. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    In Fallout 1, there isn't any hint of the great war being a cold war that never ended. All it's say is the great war was about natural ressources being almost exausted. Of course, it's not ridiculous to think that russia and china might have stayed communists, in label if nothing else. We just don't need to know that, or anything too accurate about any pre-war politics/old propagandas subjects, if you ask me. And more importantly, the characters of Fallout universe shoudn't know or care either.

    It's true, Vegas has a big 'let go, and begin again' theme. I still have a problem with NCR claiming to be the new america, or Ulysses and his old america flag that the courrier might possibly use someday.
    In Fallout 2, the NCR didn't need to resort to 'america, yeah baby' propaganda in order to be what they are, nor to know too much about the pre-war's life.

    I guess the heart of the problem is that Fallout 1 never give me the feeling of playing a game set in america, it is simply the wasteland, post apocalypse, whatever. Geography aside, the plot could have been in europe, asia or wherever and it woudn't have mattered.
    The same is almost true for Fallout 2, except for the damn enclave that I keep blaming for beginning this all 'america, baby, yeah fuck we are the US', that bethesda love.
     
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  15. Squadcar

    Squadcar Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jun 1, 2018
    Huh I thought there was. My mistake if I'm wrong. Yeah the NCR wasn't so America-y if you ask me. I agree besides that America being the setting is important. American jingoism is an important thing in the game.
     
  16. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    I am almost sure there isn't, though I guess some obscure reference in one or two lines of dialog could have never stuck in my mind. I really don't think so though.
    Actually, the great war as originaly presented never made me think of the cold war. The cold war-like element seem to have been injected by bethesda with all their 'communist' propaganda drill.

    Had to search jingoism definition. A nationalist superiority complex, if I read right?
    I never felt it that way in Fallout 1, and not even in 2 despite the enclave. The US don't have the monopoly on jingoism, if you want to call it that. You switch a few names and the enclave could have been the remnant of other real western countries in my mind. Trying to dig my head to explain my thought but the day was long.
    Guess I mean that Fallout wasn't nationalist until bethesda's fan fiction start to force it in (in their fan fiction, and directly or indirectly in Vegas I mean).
     
  17. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne Upside Down oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    There were more 60's songs in 76 I think so around then. Tactics lends credence to this as well.
     
  18. Squadcar

    Squadcar Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jun 1, 2018
    The immediate definition of it I get on google is
    So the world being at each others throats and it ending in nuclear fire seems fitting of that. Not to mention the opening scene of Fallout where it has a slide reading "Our dedicated boys keep the peace in newly annexed Canada" with a soldier in power armor executing a Canadian and waving at the camera afterwards. Then we see a T-51b helmet with a waving American flag behind it followed by the words "BUY WAR BONDS."

    This is before you even play the game.
     
  19. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Yes, but you could make similar representations for other countries. Fallout woudn't have been lesser if it started in former russia instead of former america for example. I can picture a similar intro with russian or soviet typical symbols and it would be just as fitting.
    And think this is only the intro, in the rest of the game there is nothing so ostensibly american. Pre-war ideas or propagandas don't make it pass the intro.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  20. Squadcar

    Squadcar Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jun 1, 2018
    I still disagree. The creators are familiar with the location and culture surrounding it making it important. If I wrote a game about the post-war wastes of Russia it could easily be seen as disconnected and strange seeing as I've lived in American culture my entire life.

    Normally, it's easier to write about what you know.

    But they created the entire world. The pre-war world ideas and whatnot are only useless to the characters in the world that aren't aware of them (edit: even then, it still affected them in some manner). If it wasn't for the propaganda, the way of life, the secrets of the government, etc. then there wouldn't be what we have. The Brotherhood of Steel could arguably not be a group if it weren't for Mariposa. Sure we could have a group like them but they wouldn't be the one we know. While being similar in major aspects I wouldn't say the Guardians of the Old Order are actually much like the Brotherhood of Steel.

    Yes, you could have had this all be in another country but I think it being American matters seeing as the creators and the majority of observers were American. Also the fact that America was and has been one of the biggest world powers post World War II. You could do Russia but it's much easier to write about America when you've spent all/most of your life there.