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Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by R.Graves, May 19, 2016.
Fallout 2 is a Homeric Epic compared to anything bethesda has squeezed out of their sphincter.
Wasn't trying to be a special snowflake. Just wanted to discuss it.... please stop with the Baseless assumptions.
I often think that the designers Fallout 3 and 4 took to much inspiration of the parts of Fallout 2 that didn't really work in the first place, and in particular the easter eggs.
Yeah the Vaults being part of social experiments in Fallout 2 was pretty much a stretch, from what I recall Tim Cain was influenced by the X Files when he came up with that idea, but even then it was still with the idea what kind of stuff could happen if people were in situations of prolonged isolation and certain developments would take place. (what if there are community members more prone to debilitating diseases and pass these on, what if the Vault computers don't include all important knowledge regarding technology and maintaining these, what if weapons are freely distributed in a Vault (would people actually start acting more responsible and try to keep their cool during tense situations in order to prevent firefights in the Vault or would they all agree that all weapons must be secured at all times), stuff that could be important to the Enclave's space program and colonization of other worlds)
It was never about 'wacky' experiments to basically troll people in an evil/sadistic way, with goals like creating super soldiers or have them fool around with cloning, or cryontic hibernation for that matter.
As for the Enclave, they could have been written more balanced and less evil.
But this was sort of addressed in Fallout New Vegas, showing that not all members of the Enclave were genocidal maniacs, just people thinking they were preserving the US.
And don't forget that the Enclave included a lot of the worst people in the Pre War US, xenophobic jingoistic politicians who pretty much ignored democracy and free speech when it got in the way of their own power, various corporate figures who really just were in it for the profit and didn't give much of a damn about their own employees or the public unless it resulted in bad press, some very questionable researchers and scientists who set aside ethics in the name of scientific progress.
Now imagine all these people and their offspring locked up together for more than two generations.
If I recall correctly, one of the issues that Fallout 2 faced on a development level was that it didn't have a strong centralized focus in terms of creative output, so a lot of things spiraled out of control unchecked. That's what I remember from the Fallout Bible, at least.
I wouldn't be surprised, Tim Cain left early during development and I think there had been no final decision yet on what the storyline would be like and how the campaign should go.
Nothing wrong with the team coming up with separate ideas but you have to eventually merge them together to create a consistent world and sadly some pieces of FO2 really did not fit well.
Too bad we never had a chance to explore more of Enclave in F2. The idea of worst villains in Fallout is Enclave I think comes from lack of writing. (at all)
In Fallout, we gather lots of info on the virus, on the Super Mutants and childs of the cathedral. Here, it's just in-yo-face-nazis with no explanation but with such gold jokes like the penis-named-president and chuckle on Monica Lewinsky.
To me it's one of the TOP-3 reasons to drown Fallout 2 in vats.
I can't say I find the Institute any better explained to be honest, a bunch of scientists, technicians, scholars, and their families who managed to make this underground utopia, starting with just a bunker underneath the MIT complex.
Even their 'master plan' was rather out of nowhere compared to that of the Enclave. Why replace people with synthetics? Is there any particular goal the Institute sought to accomplish other than causing paranoia among people on who is a real person, who is not, and who might be replaced?
Sounds almost like something from one of the Vault experiments Emil made up.
Dude, we have lots of discussions about F4's story and lore in the proper subforum. Welcome there. No one said Emil is any better, that's impossible.
Well, it is sorta relevant as you called the Enclave the worst villains in Fallout.
As for the topic at hand, it's sorta the same shit that's already been said, no offense. By the way, I've never really found intelligent deathclaws to be that big of a deal. If anything, I found Goris and Gruthar kinda interesting, I mean yeah they could have been implemented and written better, but they weren't that bad. I found the pop culture/over the top comedic aspects of the game to be way worse.
I'm not calling anything but bullshit right now. I stated the possible reason why this opinion on Enclave might be so popular. Read better.
You're right, I misread. No need to get so defensive man, just a simple mistake on my part.
Sorry, bad day and numerous misinterpretations in the past made feel bad and angry.
The biggest flop of Fallout 2 was that it's only competitor is previous Fallout. Back in the days F2 is the only newer game worth comparing. NMA never knew what's coming. That also Tags' statements invalid...
The Enclave is a lot more fleshed out than you give it credit for.
For example: You find out in Mariposa that in order to recover the FEV to realize there plans, they got a large group of slaves from the Wasteland, then if you visit Redding, you'll find out how a bunch of miners were taken as slaves by the Enclave, as well as finding out from Metzger in the Slaver's Guild that the Enclave are a main customer for Slaves.
You also see them buying chemicals for the FEV from The Salvatores in return for giving them weaponry.
I know they are nowhere near as well written as The Master's army, but at the same time they are still very good villains in my opinion. And yes they do come across and in-yo-face-nazis, but it's hard to write a genocidal villain that doesn't come across like that.
Yeah, you forgot your failed recovering operation where you shot the family of some poor wastelander, Frank.
This fleshing makes Enclave even more obvious villains. More doesn't mean better. Dare to say, even F3's Enclave tries to be different with this relationship between Col. Autumm and President ZAX. Failed miserabely but still.
I was always under the impression that Willie had been buried recently and that the Keeng Ra'at and Brain had been mutated by FEV or something. I don't think there's any in-game explanation, though, so you're probably right.
The ghost quest was one of the things that really made me grimace; it had no business being in the Fallout world. Don't get me wrong, mysticism could fit very well in the setting, but it would always need to be ambiguous; i.e. drinking a mysterious concoction before contacting the dead or something, adding the possibility that it might have been a hallucination.
That's the problem with a lot of Fallout 2's silliest moments, they lack proper exposition, unintentionally or not. They added whatever they thought would be "cool" completely unchecked, and the result is a game with a lot of good stuff and a lot of cringier stuff mixed together a la Saints Row 3.
That said, it's still one of my favourite games. The good stuff was pulled off magnificently and was still given a logical reason to exist within the world, unlike Fallout 3 and 4.
TL;DR incessantly repeating what's been NMA's general consensus for almost two decades.
Let me ask you then, what more would you want to see of the Enclave?
I'm not in position of wanting something.
I more meant that you are complaining that the Enclave isn't fleshed out enough, in what areas would you think they should have been fleshed out, or expanded upon?
I mean, Black Isle's writers really sure that the Enclave will be stable and even prosper for like 164 years and no one will fight for power and shit? And no conflicts between various groups of personnel, of course. (even though in F3 was) And they were sure a cliché good guy (even if WE, an outsider, a fucking tribal, reforge him with silver tongue, really?) in army of assholes is good enough for the story? Are you sure the name 'Dick Richardson' can be taken serious if we talk about the president? And why would Enclave put the stash of goods in an electrified labyrinth? What about civilians? They are here but their presense is nothing useful, just to clutter the map.
They shouldn't write the episodes you're mentioning at all too or rewrite everything in different context.
Locking in Oil Rig kinda looks like a bit silly. Better if the hydropolis wasn't abandoned just because of war.
I understand there being casinos, whorehouses and such in the wasteland but a porn studio? who would actually be in their market audience? People barely have the technology for electric power at most places. I believe that the porn studio was added to the game just because it seemed like a cool idea at the time just like many other things in Fallout 2 that doesn't fit in.
The Shi are badly written and kinda lame faction altogether with the computer emperor and all.
Hubology is just a big reference to Scientology and that is not the proper way to establish a faction in an RPG game that is supposed to be gritty and serious (at least for most of the time).