Fallout with Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky on YouTube

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Briosafreak, Nov 16, 2018.

  1. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 7, 2008
    IMO, the original Deus Ex already nailed this. Melee weapon skill only affected damage output, but ranged skills changed the size of your crosshair.

    I love seeing these guys talk about the game, but man it drove me crazy when he walked right past the body at the beginning without searching it. Then when they were trying to switch weapons I was practically shouting at the screen. "Ohmigod, just push the red button!"
     
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  2. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    This is why I no longer deify game developers. None of them know how to even play the games they had a part in making. None of them. MCA, Sawyer, Cain, Fargo - false prophets.
     
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  3. hag

    hag The Master Did Nothing Wrong!

    Aug 21, 2016
    I watched part of the stream. Seeing them fumble around with the UI and miss obvious things really got my dander up. I get that games are pretty streamlined nowadays but gosh. It was like watching my grandparents try to play. If you've ever had to teach an elderly person how to open a new tab in Internet Explorer then you might understand. No intuition whatsoever. Hate to say it but it was kind of a disillusioning experience, they seemed bored with it all. The whole thing got me wondering if a game like Fallout would even be possible today.

    That said, it was great to learn some new Fallout trivia.
     
  4. Squadcar

    Squadcar Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jun 1, 2018
    I mean it's not an uncommon things with arts and entertainment from what I've seen. There was one actor from a movie who was asked if he thought the movie was as bad as everyone said it was. He said he hadn't seen it, but he had seen the house it built for him.

    I think the issue is multifaceted. PC games in the 90s were nothing like today. You could sell games that were more artistically driven (from my perspective as now it's indie titles that are like this). Higher ups seemed to allow more risk than they do now too. Innovation wasn't necessarily encouraged but it wasn't as discouraged. Also, sometimes people just hit the right strokes when creating things. Sometimes its the way the team and the spirit of that time all fell in line. It's too complex to just dismiss or credit things like this without knowing all the gears that made it run.

    That's how I kinda feel about it at least. I could explain it more elegantly and well thought out but I don't think many people give enough of a shit to hear it lol.
     
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  5. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 7, 2008
    I don't think this is a streamlining thing. I think it's just Tim being clueless and not paying attention. You could see Leonard trying to tell him what to do at points. As developers, I guess they would be nitpicky about everything, but Fallout's UI is not complicated. It's certainly a much easier game to understand than Pillars of Eternity. But who knows, maybe the problem is these people don't see it that way. If they try to fix too many non-problems in older designs, maybe they end up with something more "modern", but clunky and obtuse at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  6. Generic Dude 2.0

    Generic Dude 2.0 First time out of the vault

    Apr 19, 2010
    Why would anybody expect game's creators to be fans of their own stuff? I'm actually glad that they suck at it. Otherwise it would be like the most masturbatory thing imaginable. It's like watching a movie with director's commentary. It can be the most important movie of your life, but all they see is mistakes and what could have been done better. Try watching any John Carpenter's movie with his commentaries. The guy made The Thing, for God's sake, arguably the greatest sci-fi/horror movie ever, but he's very matter-of-fact about it on the commentary. Like "Yeah, you just point a camera at stuff and say "Action", who cares."
     
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  7. Paladin Hank

    Paladin Hank First time out of the vault

    May 6, 2018
    Maybe it isn't when you have the manual at hand, but its nearly impossible to complete the game for the first time without looking for answers online. Especially if Fallout is the first isometric rpg you play. This game does not hold your hand. I remember struggling as hell when I first started playing the game, and I nearly gave up, like many other people have. I think its Fallout's extreme difficulty that kept bringing me back to it. For me the extreme harshness of the game's mechanics and UI reflected the harshness of the world it was depicting. I felt like I was there, struggling to survive in an unforgiving post-nuclear wasteland. Alone, without anyone to guide me, comfort me throughout my journey.
    I never felt more immersed in any piece of fiction than in Fallout.
     
  8. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    You don't need to look for answers online when it is about the UI... The game itself tells you.

    The game shows you a UI tutorial image if you press F1:
     
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  9. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 7, 2008
    Hmm, I mean the gameplay is harsh in that you can certainly die quickly, I guess. I don't think the mechanics themselves are difficult to understand. Especially compared to any of the Infinity Engine games, which seemed to almost require a background in D&D to understand. Knowing how much damage my weapon can do, and what my to-hit chance is is pretty simple in Fallout.

    As to just the usability of the UI, that can certainly be chalked up to the change from physical copies of games to digital. I think some people (not you, obviously, since you mentioned it) forget that every game came with a manual back then. Since that's not the case anymore, things that would have been explained there have migrated to being put in tooltips or in-game tutorials. Which doesn't necessarily mean a game is easier to understand. It just means the explanations have moved from the paper to the computer screen. In fact, more tooltips and explanations usually means a less intuitive interface.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  10. mef

    mef Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Dec 29, 2014
    i think fallout's ui and mechanics are one of the simplest out there. fallout was actually my first rpg game and i played it when i was 8, i think. i still struggle with most old crpgs i play today but fallout wasn't hard to grasp at all (and note, in my country it didn't come with a huge fancy manual ;-)). the only problem was to figure out how rare certain items are and what types of enemies and obstacles lay ahead but that's the case in most rpgs
     
  11. babadook

    babadook Legislative Senator oTO Orderite

    Apr 2, 2005
    I did not know this O.o But then I was young when I played the game so I didn't need or expect manuals. :postviper:
     
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  12. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    Maybe pushing F1 is asking too much from playerbase these days...
     
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  13. nkchan16

    nkchan16 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 27, 2016
    F1 doesn't tell you about command mode (vertical list of icons of possible actions) though, funnily enough I couldn't find any explanation on FO2 manual either.

    fo2cmdmenu.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  14. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    I am old enough to remember that it was common for software back in the day to use F1 to open a help screen...

    It was like, the standard for what the F1 key did.

    EDIT:
    Well, it tells you how to get the Command Cursor and explains what each action icon means.
    It explains it in more depth in the manuals (both Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 manuals).
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  15. nkchan16

    nkchan16 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 27, 2016
    Yes, but not how to get those actions as a menu as in the image above. You need to press and hold the LMB while command cursor is shown. Otherwise, how would you even use items in your inventory multiple times? Or activate (explosives) or drop them.

    As an example, Tim could press and hold the LMB on the elevator shaft and get the command menu and then choose "use item from inventory" command and then click on the rope in order to attach the rope to the elevator shaft. Which is much easier than equipping the rope.

    Also they should have used the same method to "examine" the rocks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  16. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    For that you would have to read the manual or be lucky while randomly trying to click on an item to drag it in your inventory or something like that. I guess. :lol:
     
  17. nkchan16

    nkchan16 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 27, 2016
    I couldn't find anything about that on the manual, maybe you should give it a try. The manual I'm talking about is the one comes with the GOG version (of Fallout 2). I can't check what the original US version had right now.
     
  18. Paladin Hank

    Paladin Hank First time out of the vault

    May 6, 2018
    I agree. Now that I'm familiar with isometric rpgs I never have any issues but about a year ago when I played Fallout for the first time I was completely lost for a while. Granted it was my first true roleplaying experience so I wasn't used to a game not holding my hand (for example no quest markers, all that). I was a very different player back then haha. The point is mastering Fallout's unintuitive ui and game system was a stepping stone for me and was my introduction to roleplaying.

    Wow I must be mentally deficient then because I played the game for the first time at the age of 16 last year ;p Somehow I find it hard to believe you didn't struggle in the least, especially at the beginning of the game. I'm not saying I sucked at the game forever, it just took me a while to stop dying all the time. And also while I agree that Fallout's system isn't the most difficult to understand, it still remains for me one of the most complex in computer rpgs.

    Yeah I realised that was a thing when I was about 20 hours in lel
     
  19. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Sure:


    That's from the PDF Manuals from my GOG games. Which are scans of the original book manuals.
     
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  20. Squadcar

    Squadcar Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jun 1, 2018
    I think Fallout's UI only seems clunky to people now-a-days because people are used to games telling you how to operate them in-game. There might be a help section or a manual but back in the day you kinda wanted to look at that stuff before playing and nearly every game I remember playing before PS2's time era had manuals/help sections of some sort.
     
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