Gun Control

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Throatpunch, Jul 25, 2016.

  1. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    ...So? Similar thing happened to when I was in LA with my family and our car luggage was emptied using an apparently global Chevrolet controller with most of our mementos and souvenirs along our passports. Are you trying to get across that... thievery easily exploits confusion, I guess?
     
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  2. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dark side in da houssah

    Nov 22, 2009
    Sucks. Interestingly, I keep hearing similar stories from other people visiting US as tourists. Tourists, out-of-towners etc. often aren't safe in big cities etc. There's just a pretty high level of crime in US, and no, flooding the society with firearms isn't the solution.
     
  3. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    I mean, I'm kind of suprised because I don't see how completely non violent crime has anything to do with gun control or lack thereof especially as civillians go. Tourists are easy pickings in most countries period. Even in Utopia Land Europe "watch your wallet" is completely common advice for every semi decently big city. But again, I don't see what does that have to do with anything. Could you stop them with a gun? I... guess? I'm not sure if it's all that big of a deal to get stolen from unless you don't have an insurance or the subject was on the five or even six figures of value, which doesn't cut like your usual purse, wallet, or even your property out of your safe.
     
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  4. Lanfear

    Lanfear Mildly Dipped

    Jan 26, 2016
    It has nothing to do with being invisible. It's a matter of not being able to read minds or magically divine another person's intent. We move around other people constantly in day to day life. They pass closeby to us all the time and we think nothing of it. The number of people we come into contact with at all who have any interest at all in doing us harm is miniscule. You seem to think that anyone who might view you as a potential target is inclined to be boneheadedly obvious about it rather than to just appear the same as any of the other thousands of people around us, but I don't know why you would ever imagine that to be the case.

    That being said, though, situational awareness is a great thing to have - but a much better way to put it to use than by pulling a gun on anyone you think might wish to assail you is to simply avoid situations in which an aggressor might find you an attractive target in the first place. As I said earlier, there is a very good reason for why police recommend avoiding confrontation wherever possible.

    If you're walking alone around poorly-lit areas that you know to be dangerous or high in criminal activity, then frankly you've already failed to demonstrate situational awareness.

    Using absurdism against an argument only works when the absurdity is in the argument you're trying to counter rather than in the example you're offering yourself. There is nothing absurd about an aggressor surprising their target, it happens much more often than it doesn't.

    Again, this is a very dangerous thing to assume in a confrontation with a complete stranger.

    Owning a gun for its own sake is the same as owning one for a specific reason? I would assume the former is more in line with just owning a gun because you think they're cool.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  5. YeeCop

    YeeCop Just a Sweet Irradiated Transvestite

    Jan 26, 2017
    Not really. Unless we're talking about bank robbers who meticulously plan out their biggest bank heist, or well-versed computer hackers, most lowly criminals are rather boorish and stupid.
     
  6. Lanfear

    Lanfear Mildly Dipped

    Jan 26, 2016
    I have no clue why you'd ever assume this to be the case. It's completely spurious, and in a violent confrontation you are making a huge error assuming right out of the gate that the person you're dealing with is dumb. You shouldn't make assumptions about how clever or stupid a complete stranger is in general, but especially not in a threatening situation.
     
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  7. YeeCop

    YeeCop Just a Sweet Irradiated Transvestite

    Jan 26, 2017
    Because you'd have to be a complete dunce to resort to robbing people for their valuables.
     
  8. Lanfear

    Lanfear Mildly Dipped

    Jan 26, 2016
    Not at all. You may also be desperate. Or it may just be something you're very practiced at doing.
     
  9. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 26, 2007
    'As possible' is quite relative. It's a wonderful goal, but in practice it cannot happen; for the simple reason that in order for it to work, everyone must do their fair share in the society—and not everyone will. Hence those that strive for it are inevitably abused by it, and they won't take it forever. Those that cannot get a free lunch may resort to stealing for one.

    Speak for yourself. Perhaps you might think nothing of it, but not everyone could tolerate that.

    Avoidance is the best practice; having an alternative for when avoidance is not an option, is planning ahead for a second best.

    I'd have to move to another State. I was talking about conditions in front of my house, taking out the trash, or sitting in my back yard.

    It only works when it's understood; and not taken literally.

    I once watched 'The Naked Gun' at a friend's house. Their mother was there, and she watched it with us. She took the entire film literally, and at face value. I didn't think that was possible—at the time; but I did after that, and have ever since.

    We have a language barrier. Your past and present assumptions have only made sense to me if taken as a deliberate choice of the worst optional contrary position. If that's not your intention, then we have a language barrier, because then you are jumping to these conclusions with no malice... and that shouldn't be.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  10. Lanfear

    Lanfear Mildly Dipped

    Jan 26, 2016
    This is pretty reductive... along with the idea that criminals are inherently stupid, assuming them to be inherently lazy or unwilling to work for a living suggests a lack of understanding about the principal causes of crime. It sounds as though you're simply trying to dehumanize criminals.

    You make it sound as though you're living in a state of paranoia whenever anyone passes anywhere nearby you.

    Absolutely, but why do you think drawing a gun on anyone you suspect may present a threat to you is the second best course of action to avoiding situations in which you might be at high risk of a threat?

    You're losing me. Why is your back yard poorly lit and open to strangers randomly approaching you? Why do you need a gun to take your garbage out? Are you living in some kind of dystopian hellhole where your street is just a nonstop gunfight-in-progress?

    Please explain how one is analogous to the other, if you don't think I understand. You don't actually think I'm taking what you said literally, do you? I'm saying that it's an invalid reductio ad absurdum because it doesn't capture any kind of actual absurdity.

    Maybe we do, because I'm only trying to present a counter-position to your assumptions about when a gun is and isn't useful and when owning one does and doesn't make sense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  11. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 26, 2007
    No, but there have been 22 murders in the city this year; and there were 157 last year.

    Not at all, but you are. I just don't walk around oblivious. I don't ignore people.

    I do not—but (again) you are making that assumption. It really does appear that you will choose the worst way to interpret anything I say. Who said anything about pointing a gun at on someone I suspect may present a threat to me?

    *The second best is the second best because all other options are that the assailant is armed, and the victim is not. You might be comfortable with submitting to the mercy of your attacker, but not everyone is so trusting—with reason, and not every attacker is merciful. You might actually and truly believe that a criminal wouldn't shoot you if they have gotten what they wanted from you, but you don't know if all they want is your wallet; and you don't even know if they are sane individuals... and yet you would council others to think of their insurance pay-off as a comfort in lieu of defending themselves.

    I am no longer surprised by this.

    I don't need a gun to take out the trash; (I did not say that I did). You have read what you want into it.
    But I do not take out the trash oblivious to my surroundings.
    I consider the very real fact that somebody looking for a target might be loitering in this block. I check.

    My back yard is open to anyone brazen enough to climb the fence. I've even had a lawn ornament —screwed two feet into the ground— stolen during a neighbors (unbearably loud) birthday party. A guy had actually asked to buy it the week before; I said, 'No', and the next week it was gone; and left a big hole in my yard, that I had fill.

    I have a hooded jacket hanging out in the yard right now, daring the owner to return for it; I found it on my roof.
    I saw the guy wearing it the day before I found it—when he and another were casing my yard from its perimeter, but I've not seen him since.

    I'd like not to. It was not meant literally... yet you are the one who asked me (in total seriousness) about the situation of being chained up to a wall. I had no idea what you were talking about... until you explained (that you had taken it literally).

    I have no qualm or quarrel here; we disagree, but that's the extent of it.
     
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  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    *Shrugs* Works for a lot of European nations, particularly the Scandinavian ones. You would be surprised what can be done by a decent social wellfare, health care and infrastructure giving access to education that is not based so much around how wealthy your parents are or forcing you in a livetime of debth.

    But I understand this will never happen in the US as it's Communism.

    So do people in prison, and they still get killed and beaten. I guess there is really only one way to be secure from everything.

    I think this idea that you could be prepared and ready at all times is build on an illusion, a trick, the idea that you have actuall controll about what's going to happen next. But controll is impossible beacuse no one knows what will happen next. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to prepare for worst case scenarios - like I said if you want to have a gun with you because it makes you feel save, I am fine with that. And I won't like I had at least one situation in my life where I really wish I had a gun ready, that was when a group of Neonazis threatened the life of my mother and mine. And there was no police around either since it was at night. However in my 30+ years that was the only instance where I had to fear for my life - from strangers that is, my family is another matter ... as my mother also almost killed my father once with an illegal weapon he brought home.

    But thinking that everyone could be a potential thief trying to murder you for your wallet? Time to change the area and looking for a new home me thinks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  13. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 26, 2007
    Control (and lack thereof) goes both ways... unless one gives up and does nothing; accepts fate, and makes it easy for the other guy.

    I am pro-gun ownership—the right to it, but I have never owned a gun; nor ever really wanted one. I've had times when I needed one though, but didn't have it. My arguments before, were of people's right to own them in accordance with our Constitution; and for the reasons that the Constitution allows it.

    Sadly I remember hearing of a tourist here, from some years back, who shot his daughter through the wall of his travel bag, while rummaging to find something in it. This was on the sidewalk in the middle of town; as it happens, this was in front of a bar that I used to live above... though not at the time. Guns are (of course) not things to be careless with.

    That would be being chased away.
     
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  14. YeeCop

    YeeCop Just a Sweet Irradiated Transvestite

    Jan 26, 2017
    I think you're painting criminals differently than what they really are. Desperation does drive criminals to commit heinous crimes, just like the emotion of desperation drives men to do whatever they're desperate for. It doesn't mean they're any more clever.
     
  15. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    I'd say that your own wellbeing and, well, life, and of those around you matters more than that pseudo pride, but whatever.

    No even remotely intelligent person would get ditched by the system and become desperate enough to commit any crime right, oh wait...
     
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  16. Lanfear

    Lanfear Mildly Dipped

    Jan 26, 2016
    I said that because the only alternative to seizing the role of the aggressor if avoidance is otherwise impossible (and if capitulation is undesirable) is to wait for the potential threat you've identified to move on you first before trying to draw your weapon in self-defense, which, again, invites a much greater risk of being wounded or killed by your assailant due to the fact that they will identify you as a potential threat to themselves the moment you make a move. I'm not deliberately interpreting what you say in the worst way, I just don't know what else you think that someone could do with a gun in a threatening situation.

    No one is comfortable submitting to the mercy of their assailant, but you don't do it because it's comfortable, you do it because it presents the lowest statistical risk to your own life. Much lower than trying to draw a gun on someone who has a weapon trained on you.

    This isn't really related to the argument, but your neighbourhood sounds like a complete nightmare if you are seriously concerned for your own safety right outside of your own front door. Then again, if the figures you quoted on your city's homicide rates are accurate, that would make it one of the most homicide-prone cities in the US.

    I was pointing out that your reductio ad absurdum was not valid because there was no analogous absurdity in the situation I described. I wasn't taking it literally at all.

    No, I'm not fussed either. I don't expect to change your mind, this is all just an exercise in discourse. Others reading this or similar debates may use them to decide which position is the more valid.

    I'm not painting them as anything more or less than people with the same highly variable range of cleverness, proficiency and motivation you would expect to find in people anywhere else. And I'm saying that assuming anything at all about one if they have you at a disadvantage is just putting yourself at an even greater disadvantage, because odds are good that you're very wrong, as people tend to be when they make assumptions about strangers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  17. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 26, 2007
    My mistake then. I was referring to these quotes:

     
  18. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dark side in da houssah

    Nov 22, 2009
    That is some effed up ish right there. However, if they were approaching your yard and you saw them and they'd step on your property unannounced and you fired a warning shot or whatever over their heads, you might go to jail for it even in USA.

    Hey, I have an idea for an NMA photo competition. Whoever posts a pic of an intruder/thief/a-hole here first, wins. Prize? Glory.
     
  19. YeeCop

    YeeCop Just a Sweet Irradiated Transvestite

    Jan 26, 2017
    Let me ask you something, if I may: would you say the same for a victim? If a criminal accosts an elderly woman with a knife and demands her valuables (he picks the elderly woman mainly because he perceives her as weak and an easy target), but little does he know the old woman will flash out her .32 pistol while fishing in her purse for whatever the criminal demands, would you say that the criminal is wrong for assuming the lady is at a disadvantage?
     
  20. Lanfear

    Lanfear Mildly Dipped

    Jan 26, 2016
    This wouldn't happen unless the assailant was indeed a complete idiot. They would take the entire bag, not give their target a chance to produce a weapon. The assailant in your hypothetical was not wrong in assuming their target was at a disadvantage (she was - anyone forced into a posture of defense in a sudden confrontation is at a disadvantage), they were just unbelievably foolish for unnecessarily giving their target a chance to gain the advantage. That being said, the target in this hypothetical is still taking a chance on their assailant's ability to react to seeing a gun come out of a bag.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018