How Come Sacramento Isn't in Fallout 2?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by zowmaster, Jul 8, 2015.

  1. zowmaster

    zowmaster First time out of the vault

    Jun 5, 2014
    So I was recently looking at a Fallout world map from the Fallout Wiki of the Western USA and saw how Sacramento was basically in the middle of the Fallout 2 world map (sort of mid east of the middle point between San Francisco and Navarro).

    This led me thinking on why Sacramento wasn't implemented or even talked about during the 2nd game. I mean Sacramento is/was the capital of California with over 2 million population metro, you would think (as all the major cities would be) it would definitely be a major population/gathering center for survivors...

    Does anybody have any inside scoop on this (i.e., maybe one of the lead designers really hated Sacramento?) and how do you guys reconcile this fact (or do you at all?) that Sacramento is not even mentioned during your playthru's of Fallout 2?
     
  2. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    According to the wiki, the main office of the Happy trail caravan is at Sac-town, the post-war Sacramento.

    It is also likely that Sacramento wouldn't have the same importance in the Fallout southwest commonwealth than it currently has in the real-world California.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  3. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Also if you look at the map, much of the space between Redding and Navarro and SF is taken up by a GIGANTIC crater. That area was probably hit directly by a nuke, so it would explain why MUCH of the West Coast of California is devoid of the bustling metropolises that compromise it in real life.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  4. beans00

    beans00 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Nov 19, 2009
    ive been to sacramento once, its pretty much a wasteland already lol
     
  5. TomJ

    TomJ It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 12, 2015
    Developer oversight is likely the culprit. Fallout 2 was released only about a year after Fallout. It would be easier to not have to define and build a second metropolis in a game. Especially when most people outside of California don't care about Sacramento. Just like the NCR attack on Navarro after Fallout 2 doesn't make sense because Navarro would have been over 450 miles from NCR territory at the end of Fallout 2.
     
  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    I don't know, my theory is that maybe a Nuclear war occured.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  7. Stone Cold Robert House

    Stone Cold Robert House Mojave Rattlesnake

    Jul 6, 2015
    Leavin' Sacramento,
    Sacramento there I go
    Leavin' Sacramento
    Sacramento there I go
    They got some fat-assed women there and Rock is gonna just say no
    Well I might take a plane,
    I might take a train,
    How do you people live here? You must be insane
    I'm leavin' Sacramento,
    Sacramento I won't stay,
    But I'll be sure to come back when the Lakers beat the Kings in May!

    - Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson


    Importance in the Post-War world is defined more by what groups settle which locations than size or Pre-War importance. The NCR (Shady Sands) did not exist before the war yet it's the most important city in the region. San Francisco is really important today, but after the war the only group of note is the Shi who, despite being very advanced, are a supremely small society. So size isn't really a factor here. Why didn't Sacramento become an important location? Possibly because the area was hit by a large amount of nukes and survivors prefered to settle in easier places instead. Or maybe it was too far from any major vault or bunker to become a population center. But the truth is that Sac-Town, as it is currently known as, wasn't attractive enough for earlier settlers to have anything of note besides the Happy Trails caravan, who aren't really significant either.
     
  8. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Because nobody ever made war with a faction that wasn't on their own frontier...
    Seriously, though, they don't need to be too close, the Enclave was a threat for the NCR and it also had way better tech that the NCR would want, so it makes perfect sense that they'd move a mere 450 miles to fight a war against them, specially when they were already weakened by the PC actions. Further, even if it was before the war against the BoS (I don't have the timeline burnt into my memory yet), the NCR was far from wanting all of this tech in BoS hands, because that would have meant they'd have another point where they'd be in the begging end of the negotiation with them. They had to be the first ones to strike, that's just plain common sense.
     
  9. TomJ

    TomJ It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 12, 2015
    I doubt Sacramento would have been bombed more than San Francisco would have. The inner parts of the Bay Area have way more people and bomb worthy targets. Sacramento is just a government seat that may have had some National Guard buildings. It was likely abandoned after the bombs fell. Its surrounded by farm land and people need food, so why not move into the surrounding country side? Also Fresno isn't mentioned when the Fresno metro area has about a million, but Bakersfield(Necropolis after the war) has far less.
     
  10. TomJ

    TomJ It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 12, 2015
    Take into consideration that the NCR is a 3rd world country by our standards that had to fight through a hostile environment and cross the Coastal Range. So yes, based on the technological capacity, hostile creatures/people and crossing mountains, 450 miles is a very long distance to mount an invasion. Also given that the NCR can barely keep the 270 mile supply line open from LA to Vegas, so how could they maintain a 450 mile supply line? Northern California has difficult to pass roads in the Coastal Range outside of the Bay Area with all of our resources. Not having them would make that harder.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
  11. Stone Cold Robert House

    Stone Cold Robert House Mojave Rattlesnake

    Jul 6, 2015
    The people at Navarro were easy pickings, though. A refueling station (that no longer had any fuel), populated by the minor part of an already small group, that lost its chain of command after the Oil Rig destruction and part of their force was leaving for the East Coast or to be integrated into other societies... even if they had the best technology in the wasteland, they were dead men walking. Sure, it's difficult and supply intensive for the NCR to move troops all the way to Navarro, but what would the Enclave do? Short of escaping, they had no way to put a real resistance. All the NCR needed was to send a couple batallions to take down ill-supplied, disorganized soldiers - and they had everything to gain from it.
     
  12. TomJ

    TomJ It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 12, 2015
    If you let ED-E go, he disappears upon reaching Navarro. I'd assume that means Navarro survived, or at least people that are descendants of the Enclave survived. I'm not saying the NCR wouldn't mount an attack, I'm just saying it wouldn't have gone as well as the NCR would like people to believe. It would be intimidating to someone in Vegas to say "yeah we beat the Enclave, the most advanced group in the wasteland" even if they didn't finish the job. Which with ED-E seems likely. This and not mentioning the Shi leaves room for another game to explore the topic. As for being disorganized, people really can become cohesive when their lives are on the line.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
  13. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Reads "NCR is a 3rd world country by our standards", feels a headache coming on, walks away before the onset of a hemorrhage.
     
  14. Vault Maker

    Vault Maker Vault-Tec Cartographer

    Jun 27, 2006
    In real life, at one time the US planned to nuke 80% of Soviet cities of population 20,000 and over, mostly due to having a military installation or some industry considered important.

    Sacramento is large, has numerous major air force bases nearby, lots of military and government communications systems to the west, and is a major center of government as a state capitol. Even under the fictional Commonwealth system, it's likely that many government functions would remain. It would be a major target. Much of the city is modern, light (steel- or wood-framed) construction, and what wasn't blown apart would burn easily. It's non-existence isn't unlikely after a real-world nuclear war, and highly probable after the war in Fallout.

    Taking the "NCR" location in Fallout 2 as Shaver Lake, the distance to Navarro is only about 275 miles. And the NCR in Fallout 2 wanted it's fingers in many distant pies, including New Reno, Vault City, and putting pressure on slavers well north of Navarro. Wiping out a major likely competitor would be just the kind of thing NCR might try. Remember, they have their positive side, but also a negative one...and could easily fall prey (through ambition or arrogance) to the vicissitudes of imperial overstretch.
     
  15. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Third World Country person here, we have more cars than the NCR, working internet, electricity and water. We even have universities, we don't have robots tho, at least not futuristic ones.
     
  16. TomJ

    TomJ It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 12, 2015
    As for the NCR being too far away, I'm assuming the NCR of 2244 would have had a military base near Bakersfield (Necropolis) that it would use as a base to launch an operation against the Enclave at Navarro. From Necropolis to the real world town of Fort Bragg (No actual fort is there) is 440 miles or so, depending where along the coast Navarro's location would correspond to.

    Even if the NCR went as far as Fresno, the bulk of its military would likely be farther south and closer to home rather than on the frontier. I say this as some one who plays Civilizations a lot. Strategically, it is better to keep your military closer to your homeland than it is to keep them on a far away frontier. Yes the NCR would have had troops all the way up to its northern frontier, say Fresno, but there would only be enough troops to perform the local mission. There wouldn't likely be enough to launch an invasion, except as a stop over point for the force that assaulted Navarro.

    As for influencing towns outside of the NCR and hundreds of miles away from its territory, ever nation can do that. The US can put pressure on any country it wants, whether or not invading makes any sense. Or like before WW2 we had economic power to exert on others, like the NCR has. The pressure seemed more economic in Fallout 2 rather than fear of an imminent invasion. Yes they could, but would it be their first choice? And the NCR, at least from my perspective of it, is a caricature of pre WW2 America.

    My argument as a list is...
    1. The NCR did attack Navarro.
    2. The NCR had a major military base 300-400 miles from Navarro.
    3. The NCR had problems supplying the Mojave in 2281.
    4. The NCR had fewer resources in 2244.
    5. It is likely that the locals didn't like the NCR's invasion
    Conclusion: The NCR did attack Navarro, but with logistical problems and an unwilling local populace, didn't finish the job and some Enclave personnel survived in the vicinity of Navarro.

    This also leaves the potential that the Bay Area and Coastal Northern California isn't under the NCR and possibly under the Shi and Enclave. This leaves the possibility for a future game set in Northern California, since the Enclave and Shi would be hostile towards the NCR, the NCR being invaders.
     
  17. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Your mistake is in considering the NCR had fewer resources in 2244, and that the problems in supplying the Mojave in 2281 come mostly from a lack of resources.
    In NV it is stated that the trouble is specifically that they expanded too much, and specifically into the desert. There's also, you know, the war with a major faction right after a war with the BoS. Those are the main reasons the NCR has trouble in 2281. Troubles they didn't have by the end of Fallout 2.
    Also, Navarro was just a single base, there isn't as much as "an unwilling local populace" as there was a single base of enemies to defeat.
     
  18. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    ALSO also, Navarro was partially evacuated before the NCR even hit them, because they knew they were coming. It's the only reason groups like the Remnants even still exist; because they ran before they could get slaughtered. Everyone who stayed in Navarro was cut down because there was no way they could stop the onslaught of a nation with just their few dozen remaining troops. Heavily armed, yes, but woefully and laughably outnumbered.
     
  19. TomJ

    TomJ It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 12, 2015
    I'm figuring the Shi would have done something to hinder the NCR, assuming the Shi weren't destroyed in Fallout 2. They didn't want the NCR around and although isolationists, they'd want a buffer zone after seeing/predicting of the attack on Navarro and thinking "hey we're next, let's do something to preserve our independence". And the Shi having better technology could convince or more likely bribe the locals into thinking the NCR is bad and build a buffer between NCR territory and San Francisco. San Francisco's potential independence can't really be confirmed or denied, it wasn't mentioned in New Vegas outside of Col. Hsu being born in San Francisco. Considering the Shi's advanced weaponry, no one is going to attempt to attack that. Also with a war with the Brotherhood going on, you don't need a second advanced enemy to fight.
     
  20. Vault Maker

    Vault Maker Vault-Tec Cartographer

    Jun 27, 2006
    NCR is well north of Bakersfield. The Fallout 2 NCR location at Shaver Lake is 35 miles NE of Fresno. The Fallout 1 Shady Sands location is slightly east of the Sierras. Navarro is near...Navarro, just north of Point Arena at 39N 123.40W. Some mapping info here.