How is Caesar's army not a joke?

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by Question2, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Question2

    Question2 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jun 20, 2017
    Most of the lower ranks are very badly armed and armored. Historically speaking, what happens when you get a bunch of guys with melee weapons to charge guys with firearms? A lot of dead natives during european colonial conquests.

    Sure, NCR troopers aren't exactly like US army rangers, but the service rifle is still a 5.56mm semi automatic rifle. Each NCR trooper should be able to take on several legion recruits (guys with machetes) easily in most conditions.

    Obviously that would be quite imbalanced game wise, but lore wise, it seems that the bulk of Caesar's army should be highy ineffective except during night raids, etc.

    Even the assault at hoover dam as potrayed in the game makes little sense. The topside of the dam is largely an open killing field with several towers, and the NCR has plenty of snipers and machine guns. And the assault was launched in broad daylight to boot (cant remember if the time depends on the player's actions). And swimming up the pipes (or whatever it is the legion does to get inside the dam) seems highly implausible.
     
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  2. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Recruit_legionary
    Look at the inventory sections on that page.

    As you can see, every Legionary carries at least one Ranged Weapon on them as well as the Machetes.

    Granted some only have Throwing Spears(Which could still be used at a distance), but the majority of the weapons they seem to carry are some kind of gun.

    The reason they carry Machetes is so they don't build a reliance on using ammunition alone, and can be just as effective if they need to move in to melee.
    It's not entirely an open killing field. It is a large curved dam with various buildings and constructions all over it.

    As for the Snipers, yeah that's actually addressed in game. If you do a Legion playthrough, a Decanus will send you to take down the Snipers. Even if they didn't have the Courier's aid, I'm sure they could have taken advantage of various points of cover, and with difficulty, broke in to one of the Sniper Towers, and taken it over.

    They were actually travelling down the maintenance tunnels.

    The idea was to get inside the dam and either kill General Oliver(At which point the NCR have lost there main general), or force him to call a retreat(At which point the dam is abandoned). The assault on the top-side was mostly just so they could corner the power plant on both sides.
     
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  3. YeeCop

    YeeCop If It's Hostile, You Kill It

    Jan 26, 2017
    NCR Troopers carry their 5.56mm Service Rifles and their dogtags. That's it. Maybe a Fancy Lad here and there but that's it.
    Even the Legion grunts carry machetes, a rifle (typically a Cowboy Repeater, Hunting Rifles, or 10mm submachine guns sometimes), Antivenom, purified
    water, and throwing spears.
    I've seen firefights between NCR troops and Legion recruits. When the NCR dude loses his Service Rifle, he's fucked. He's gonna be throwing left hooks and
    jabs with his puny fists while Antonius the Legionnaire is shooting at him with a .357 Magnum rifle, worst case a machete. You're saying it like the Legionnaire charge in kamikaze style with their machetes.
     
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  4. Juza The Cloud

    Juza The Cloud Nanto Goshasei

    Jun 3, 2015
    I'd wager morale is higher in the Legion. They have the will and desire to fight. The NCR readiness varies between units and locations. Also the NCR has to deal with the Fiends, Powder Gangers and potentially the Khans and the random BOS patrol provided the lockdown is over.
     
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  5. Question2

    Question2 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jun 20, 2017
    From what ive seen of the occasional ncr patrol vs legion skirmish in the wild, the legion mostly runs at them. They get shot a bit, but survive due to how weak the service rifle is.

    From a lore perspective, that approach wouldnt work that well. Most of their ranged weapons dont look like they would be able to compete with a service rifle in the open either.

    Wouldnt the NCR have obviously blocked the maintenance tunnels or something?
     
  6. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    That usually happens whenever I see them fighting. I guess the NCR doesn't teach their troops how to actually shoot.
     
  7. YeeCop

    YeeCop If It's Hostile, You Kill It

    Jan 26, 2017
    Yeah. The Misfits at Camp Golf are prime evidence for that.
     
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  8. Brycen

    Brycen First time out of the vault

    May 30, 2017
    Incorrect!

    Fallout Wiki: Caesar's Legion

    The Legion excels at melee combat, as evidenced by their choice of weaponry - primarily, the machete, which cripples limbs. They are not averse, tactically speaking, to using firearms, but will not provide them to the lower ranked troops. They usually have to scavenge firearms, and the ones used by the Recruits are rather low quality and include .357 Magnum revolvers, varmint rifles, and single shotguns.​


    This is easily verifiable in the game or G.E.C.K.

    This is erroneous information! See the answer above.

    Fallout Wiki: NCR trooper

    An average soldier in the NCR army is issued with a service rifle and a 9mm pistol. . . .​


    Fallout Wiki: New California Republic


    The NCR's military is composed of several Divisions, including marksmen, scouts, mechanized units and a small number of Vertibirds. In addition, many of their major cities are protected and patrolled by heavily armed police officers. One of their Special Forces units consists of the New California Rangers. . . . NCR was also in the habit of establishing marshals in the major population centers in their territories, responsible for enforcing the laws of NCR throughout the Republic. Ghouls, super mutants, and humans were all known to serve in the NCR armed forces. The NCR gained access to a limited number of Vertibirds from their battle with the Enclave over Navarro, along with the Brotherhood of Steel.​


    As for charging in "kamikaze style with machetes", see this video, starting at 13 min 07 sec; and a confirmation at 18 min 48 sec that most of them were armed only with a machete.

    Moreover, the poster was speaking from the lore perspective.

    The NCR readiness may vary but, unlike the Legion, it always involves firearms. Likewise, dealing with other groups does not diminish the NCR's ability to supply its troops with firearms to the point of having to rely on melee weapons instead.

    Fallout Wiki: NCR trooper

    [D]ue to logistical troubles and supply shortages, not all troopers can be issued with a service rifle, and instead, they must make do with whatever firearm is available. As a result, small NCR patrols can fairly often be found wandering the wasteland armed with 10mm submachine guns, 9mm submachine guns, 10mm pistols, 9mm pistols, and even single shotguns.​


    As you can see, even with supply shortages, NCR troops are still armed with firearms.

    And now onto other peoples' posts on the same subject.

    Caesar's Legion looking too backwards and evil:

    Anyone else bothered by their gear? NCR has, from what I've seen, a mostly modern army- uniformed and equipped with standardized firearms. Some even have armor. The Legion, at least from what I've seen, equips the bulk of their troops with machetes and football padding. If they were a simple band of raiders , this might be okay, but according to lore, the Legion is supposed to be a large, well-organized, up and coming army, strong enough to oust the NCR from fortified positions.

    Anyone else bothered by this? I'm fine with them trying to mimic the [Roman] legionary look, but couldn't they be equipped with carbines and specially colored combat armor instead?

    [. . .]

    The slave-trade is their bread and butter(implied to be pretty lucrative in past FO games), and raiding and tributes should have allowed them to put together a respectable armory.​


    How [could] the Legion be less...terrible?

    The idea is just plain bad. I think [the] Khans is stretching it as it is. . . . Elite troopers in gas masks and black cloaks would . . . be more [believable] than some scrawny kneed football players in torn skirts.​


    How laughable is Legion armor?

    Old sports equipment and if they're lucky some dinner plates and a motocross helmet, until you become a Centurion. Then you can have an unbalancing mishmash of used armor you probably just broke, and then took off a dead person. . . .​


    Ridiculous things in [Fallout: New Vegas]

    Caesar's Legion . . . go and fashion American football gear to look [Romanesque] and mold an Imperial society complete with accurate [salutatory] greetings, rank and unit names, general [terminology] and academically correct classical pronunciation. C'mon. . . .​


    Anyone else think the Legion is ridiculous?

    There are several obvious examples in History upon which Caesar's Legion is based, the Roman Empire being the obvious one. There are also the Aztecs, The Persians, the Mongols, the Zulus, the Napoleonic French Empire, etc. All of them were militarily aggressive empires that would conquer neighbors, and then draft the conquered nation's military forces into its own army. However, in FNV all legionaries are shown to be suicidally committed to the Legion. This is contrary to actual History, where it has been demonstrated time and time again that draftees for the most part do NOT willingly throw their lives away just because their new masters command it. Most conscripted nations usually just "go through the motions" and when confronted by pointedly capable opponents, surrender at that first opportunity.

    Soldiers of the core nationality -- Romans, Mongols, Persians, etc. -- often fought as fanatics, to the death. Not so the draftees from conquered nations/empires/tribes.

    Additionally, the Legion is portrayed as VERY hostile towards the use of higher tech weapons (which makes them futuristic Luddites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite). In terms of domestic production, that might be acceptable, but certainly NOT when facing opponents armed with Space Age weapons. The Aztecs disintegrated when facing off with the Spaniards armed with a few score matchlocks, a couple cannon, and a handful of horses. Legionaries armed with machetes, some slug-throwers, and a few laser rifles would literally melt under the attention of a squad of Brothers armed with Gatling lasers. Furthermore, the Legion soldiers would KNOW that outcome was inevitable. There's nothing soldiers hate more than the thought that their lives are being literally thrown away with no hope of success. The leaders' staunch refusal to use readily available superior weapons would definitely de-motivate the rank-and-file Legion grunts.

    Lastly, Caesar MUST realize that his mighty empire is doomed to disintegrate as soon as he dies. He's obviously enough of a historian to recognize the similarity to the Macedonian Empire, and what became of it when Alexander died. Knowing that without him, there is NO unifying force to hold all those defeated tribes together, one wonders what made him think that the cost of all that death and destruction was a worthwhile investment. If he did believe it to be so, just _what_ was it that made it worthwhile?

    [. . .]

    I dislike the Legion too. They are probably the most absurd [faction] in the Fallout universe IMO and what's [worse] is they are the MAIN enemy [faction] in NV. [. . .] I wish the enemy [faction] was a stronger opponent and [used] higher tech weapons. . . .

    [. . .]

    The Legion are absolutely ridiculous.

    Wish they'd just had some originality instead of basing them so heavily on the whole Roman empire thing they got going.

    [. . .]

    Granted, the military is the focus for Caesar's Legion. And since it seems that ALL the fighting takes place _only_ in the vicinity of Caesar, that's fine. But there MUST be a government back home, holding things together, balancing the Economy, providing Security empire-wide such that "caravans don't even need to hire mercenary escorts". That requires a level of organization that Can NOT be administered from an army on the move. . . .

    [. . .]

    I find the [Legion's] avoidance of modern technology ridiculous. The things that made the Roman armies successful was their discipline, tactics and advanced military technology. If they conquered someone with better technology they adopted it (e.g. Chain Mail from the Gauls). Caesar even states they eschew medical technology (apart from his auto-doc for favoured people). Roman armies had highly skilled battlefield surgeons. Relying on hoards of suicidal fanatics won't win any battles against an organised opposition with better firepower. The Legion just wouldn't be a credible threat to anyone, particularly the NCR.

    [. . .]

    I thought it was dumb as a concept; I thought it contradicted itself... I would've preferred someone like a General Kuntz as the "bad" guy. . . .

    [. . .]

    [What I] don't get [is] why [doesn't] the NCR just send 1st [Recon] and ground forces to take care of the [Legion]. [T]he majority of the [Legion] use melee weapons.

    [. . .]

    I think that one of the biggest disconnects for the game is the heavy Latin language emphasis of the Legion. Taking place in the American Southwest and West, the heaviest influence on the 87 "tribal languages" that were molded into the Legion would have been American-version English. Followed by Spanish, the several reservations of Native American tribal languages, and a smattering of Chinese dialects (remnants descended from the Chinese railroad workers for the most part). . . .

    [. . .]

    [Personally] I found [the Legion] [to be] completely ridiculous. One thing was that [the] NCR were scared of them. [. . .] Any rifle would simply kill a person from [a] few shots in [half]-plastic football equipment. . . .

    [. . .]

    Strangely Caeser [doesn't] use Roman [strategies] which were one of key successes of Roman Republic/Empire. NCR [on] the other hand could have destroyed half of Fortification Hill with one blow. Why wouldn't they do so?

    Legion could have followed their "code" and still have high-tech weapons and better armor which would have closed their legs. I also found 86 tribes being a bit far fetched. I wouldn't think that most of Arizona became tribes after the war.

    [. . .]

    Fiends use one of [the] most powerful energy weapons in the game. . . .​


    There are more discussions like these.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
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  9. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 6, 2016
    What the hell are these discussions brought from elsewhere?
     
  10. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    Are we forgetting that Recruit Legionaries are literally just newbies sent to overwhelm the NCR? The new recruits that are sent forward as cannon fodder? Even then, lots of them(though not all) have access to firearms

    Given that a lot have firearms, and are also far better trained, and generally far more tactical and combat orientated than the NCR, plus the NCR being divided on several fronts, and Legion being able to mobilize there armies much quicker, I see genuine competition if they are tactical enough.

    Also, Recruit Legionaries are only involved in small-scale skirmishes, where they could generally overwhelm NCR troops. Major battles(As is evidenced by Hoover Dam) are mostly handled by Prime Legionaries, all of which have guns.
    Look at that paragraph you just quoted on the wiki, look for citations. Do you see any citations?

    If not, that means what is said is entirely speculation.

    Why assume that the weapons recruits have are scavenged and not given?
    In lore, they'd probably be far more tactical. Perhaps the recruits would end up ambushing NCR patrols.
    Are you forgetting they are actively maintaining the dam.

    They'd need those tunnels in shape, to help them travel through and make fixes to the dam.

    Also, in a Legion run, you can see that tunnel access is password protected via a terminal, but presumably with there Frumentarii, the Legion know the passwords.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  11. YeeCop

    YeeCop If It's Hostile, You Kill It

    Jan 26, 2017

    Mate, nearly every Legion recruit I've encountered has a rifle or some sort of ranged weapon (including throwing spears). Also I've never encountered a Legionnaire using a varmint rifle.
     
  12. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    Cherry picked points. I've looked at some and Brycen is clearly misrepresenting the discussions for it's agenda. Refreshingly, Brycen seems to be an overall Fallout hater rather than the typical 4 fanboy so there's that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
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  13. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Mate, you need to look at your GECK...
    Legion Recruits come with the machetes, throwing spears, firearms and some even have explosives while NCR Troopers come with a Combat knife and the Service rifle.

    NCR Trooper:

    It says NCR Trooper Leader in the name but the inventory is exactly the same for all NCR Troopers I checked (more than 15 records and I even checked some that are not even used in addition) except for the ones on the Strip (no weapons of course) and pre dam battle ones.

    Legion Recruit:
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
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  14. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne Misanthropic God of Rations Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    I love messing with loot tables. I pimped out my troops with all the modded weapons. Made firefights interesting. God don't make me reinstall New Vegas.
     
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  15. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Sexy Anthro Goddess...Mutant.

    Nov 8, 2016
    Last time I played, there was fucking scavenged power armour wearing motherfuckers with chainsaws and anti materiel rifles trying to maim me.

    Curiously most NCR I met were pansies.
     
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  16. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 6, 2016
    I check the Geck and there are some recruits with machete only. On other hand Legion´s hit squad are the toughest and best-armed npcs in the game.
     
  17. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    I just went through all the NPCs with "LegionRecruit", "LegionaryRecruit" and "LegionaryWastelandRecruit" on their names and they all have the guns, throwing spears and machetes. The ones with the explosives are the "LegionaryWastelandRecruits" named ones.
    This is checking GECK only with NV master on. Since that is the base game.
    Does any DLC add the ones with just the machetes?
     
  18. Brycen

    Brycen First time out of the vault

    May 30, 2017
    That some lower ranked Legion troops may have a firearm besides a machete takes into account that they scavenge firearms, making it not-a-sure-thing, where the ones scavenged by the Recruits are of a low quality. However, according to the game and the G.E.C.K., they are initially only issued a machete. This has already been verified by the example of the Legion Recruits' inventories in Nipton, making it a fact.

    By comparison, NCR troops always have firearms, with the exception of the Strip and some NCR MPs (not due to a supply shortage). Yet, the NCR is, somehow, losing ground, is terrified of the Legion and expects everyone to believe that it is a major threat to it. Combined with the Legion's ridiculous armor—what a terrible writing and complete nonsense!

    Speaking of the Legion armor, see "Spiked Armor" (video) for why it is ridiculous even for melee combat.
     
  19. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    As opposed to @Risewild 's evidence via G.E.C.K? The Legion's higher ranked members do spawn with actual firearms of good condition (in fact, the number of brush guns that they spawn with makes you wonder how the Legion is not winning more often).
    What you said is not fact, just you misrepresenting the narrative and point to suit your agenda as always.

    Well, the NCR is overstretched in the region. Most of the actual forces in lore were moved to Hoover Dam because General Lee Oliver wants to make some 'epic' final battle without recognizing the dangers of spreading his soldiers thin, making the region insecure and allowing the Legion to continue sneaking into the Mojave region undetected (the fact that in the Battle of Hoover Dam, it is mentioned that there are Legion assaults in some outlying cities suggesting that the infiltration by the Legion was successful). Plus the Legion has bodies to spare so they can continue throwing bodies while using that distraction to derail and sabotage NCR positions in those outstretched areas. How else could Frumentarii get so far into NCR lands (Nipton, Camp McCarran etc.)?
     
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  20. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Sexy Anthro Goddess...Mutant.

    Nov 8, 2016
    Stop being obtuse.

    Legion are REGULARLY given firearms, not service rifles, but other, dangerous weapons.

    This includes stuff up to BRUSH GUNS and anti materiel rifles capable of stopping deathclaws.
     
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