NUCLEAR WAR!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yeah I know, I can read Wikipedia too.

    Huh, so that's what it feels like when other people read my posts. Kinda refreshing.
     
  2. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    Try pretentious then. Define that one right quick for us.
     
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  3. Danuis

    Danuis Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 6, 2016
    Nukes are so serious that the US Gov and most people just gave up in the 70s to 90s about preparing against them and went back to clamoring for no war to outright disarmament.

    Now North Korea has such primitive tech that surviving a nuclear attack outright is somewhat plausible, for now, until it isn't again by North Korea getting more potent and numerous nukes.

    Adding to that, Fins, well, North Korea is selfish and the dynasty wants to survive. Launching a nuclear war won't do that, but having the capability to if invaded will keep you from being invaded, and since 2006 North Korea has added redundancy and proficiency to their capabilities. A realpolitik USA would had invaded then. It didn't. Bush wanted to be like or better than his daddy and went to Iraq. It can, plausibly, invade now, but every passing month incurs the risk of more warheads being made to nuke South Korea and Japan at least and up to full on capability to coat the continent USA. I've seen numbers for 10-100 warheads already, and at the least, that means no more South Korea and maybe no more Japan.

    The time to 'deal' with North Korea to make sure it can never be a threat has slipped. Now we must tolerate their existence - for trying to deal with it now is too costly, at least costly to South Korea and Japan - and I daresay soon their adventures around the world as they try to form their own sphere of likewise nations and proxy wars thereof.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
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  4. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    People - most people, - sure did. But US government? Not really. Since 2001, i read, the government is spending substantial sums and efforts to exactly prepare against exactly nukes. How comes i know it and you don't, i wonder...

    Look, i know rather little about North Korea. But i know that back during Korean war, hundreds of US' B-29s pretty much bombed the country's infrastructure to smitherens. Selfish or not - does not matter as much as their memory of those events, i suspect. They just know 1st-hand that US won't hesitate to reduce 'em to dust - that already happened once. So what you expect they do? Throw away all weapons and say "yeah, please come and do it again whenever you like"? I don't blame them for arming up and digging in.
     
  5. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Uhh, the Norks surprise invaded the South. Then they invited a few million PLA to use said targeted infrastructure to the party. So avoiding the urge to sneak attack your neighbor and then when you get spanked, asking the PLA to do the heavy lifting would go pretty long towards avoiding a repeat.

    I mean, you got no oil and never Joo-bash, so just be chill with the nuke threats and you can do all the gulagapalooza your heart desires.
     
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  6. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Actually, North Korea asked for approval by the Soviets before they lunched the attacks, and they only gave their 'yes' to the attack when the Chinese under Mao gave their insurance to step in, in the case the shit hits the fan. The Soviets knew that North Korea on their own was rather ill prepared, but they didn't want to risk a direct involvement, so someone else had to do the heavy lifting. However, quite a lot of Soviets actually fought in the Korean war, like with the Air Force, flying the planes, albeit this was never official.
     
  7. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Oh well, if you've got the moral authority of Mao AND Stalin behind you it's all good then. Was Pol Pot on speed-dial just in case?
     
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Are you nutz or something? What is today, the assume-the-position-of-your-discussion-partner day? Did I justify North Koreas actions with any word or something?

    I merely pointed out that NK didn't really ask China, they made an agreement before they decided to attack to step in, when shit hits the fan, which they did.
     
  9. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Vault Fossil

    Oct 27, 2003
    Plenty of countries are anti-US and do not get invaded. Having a big buddy is enough. No need to start a regional nuke race Norkies.
     
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  10. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    I was not saying North Korea is all white and innocent. I only said that US levelled up their infrastructure, - bridges, factories, air fields, etc etc. My point is, this kind of destruction is remembered by the people of any country for long after the war's done. Heck, there are still hundreds thousands folks in North Korea who have seen said massive results of US bombing with their own eyes, and not for a day, but remaining in ruins for years.

    This is not about who's guilty and who's not. Like i said i know little about North Korea and me, i just don't know "who started" Korean war back in 1950s. Who was original "puppet master"? Who pulled strings and made provocations to see that war happen? I don't know nor, to be honest, do i care as far as my point here goes. Which is, if you get real nasty during any war about destroying things which millions of civilians depend upon in their daily lives = then you gotta be ready that several generations of the people will remember you as evil. They simple folks couldn't care less "who started" the thing. All they know is all the damage they suffer from, and who did that damage. Dig?

    P.S. It was the way of US and UK to bomb the hell out of any enemy, back then, not just North Korea. Japan still remembers their burning cities, and it's not just Hiroshima and Nagasaki - they got most of their real estate being wooden structures, back then, and B-24s were able to drop thousands incediary bombs each, effectively burning those cities to ashes. Germany still remembers such bombings, as well. Vietnam still does remember agent Orange. Those are not things easily forgotten. I bet people who ordered those mass-destruction bombings did not care how US and UK citizens of today would deal with consequences, eh? Conventional weaponry, but mass destruction for sure when used on such a scale, fire tornadoes in Drezden and such. Was it really required to do this kind of war, back then? I doubt. But also, i can't be sure. I wasn't there. I believe that i should not allow myself the luxury of condemnation in any case where i am only an observer, not participant. Still, now the West gets results of this approach (which was never copied nor attempted by soviets, by the way) - that's one thing i am sure about.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  11. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Has nothing to do with innocence, we're talking pragmatism. If 1.3 Million blooded PLA swarm into the fray, you'd be pretty dumb not slow them down. That's just sound strategy. Besides which, we're talking 60 years ago, the reason the country is a destitute, malnourished mudhole is for much different reasons today. Good luck asking for accountability! Perhaps they could petition dear leader or protest the conditions, I'm certain that would be well received.

    What the people think about it? It's a Stalinist regime bruh, you think what state media feeds you to think, or you go to gulag or re-education camp.

    Of course state media would use such a thing as leverage to distract the people from how backassed that country is. Scapegoat, blame the other, again this is just opportunistic pragmatism. Everything would be great in the Worker's Paradise if only Dear Leader's noble aspirations weren't being thwarted by the Imperialist Americans and Japanese and their S. Korean stooges. With their insidious internet and three meals a day. Comrades, do not be tempted by their decadent Honey BBQ Wings!

    Let's face it, if the North invaded again the offensive would dissolve at the first Hooters they got to. Mass defections and regime toppled by the formidable combination of titties, beer and all you can eat hot wings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  12. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    1.3 million blooded PLA, you say. Well, how about 3.8 million blooded nazi troops during operation Barbarossa, then? That should sound more than "reasonable" for soviets to carpet-bomb cities of Finland, Romania, Germany and other participating countries, so how come those cities' centers were not more than 90% destroyed by soviet bombers once they had the chance to do it during later counter-offensive operations, eh? And it's not like soviets lacked means to do so. Some ~7500 bombers were used by them during WW2 times. That's more than enough to burn cities out the same way Drezden, Hamburg, Tokyo and many others were taken out by the West. Soviet high command could easily burn any city to ashes the same way "allies" were doing. "Justified" by the fact that it's Axis who attacked, - using your "logic", - and so "we can do it", blah blah blah. But instead, soviets almost always used their bombers not against kids and elders, not against mothers and wifes, not against factories and schools, but against those who actually had to be taken out - enemy combatants and purely military installations.

    So nope, you're not convincing me at all, in this case. I remain quite sure that B-29 usage during Korean war was misdirected and excessive (to say the least). At least those large-scale raids by big B-29 formations before Black Thursday, that is.

    P.S. Are we having the case of "1. we are always right; 2. we were always right; 3. whomever say we were not - see p.1" here, so typical for many americans both back then and nowadays? I know not all americans are so, certainly not; like, Kurt Vonnegut is one brilliant example of not being so. But i'm not so sure about you, Cimmerian Nights. Let me know if i'm wasting my breath here, please. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Please not again one of those "my superpower is better than yours" discussion ... we're all the same kind of assholes, just in different areas.
     
  14. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    I agree.

    No worries, it's not this sort of discussion. I do not deem "my superpower" being any better. USSR and later Russia fails miserably on so many fronts, and it's totally appropriate USSR ended up being failed state, too. I can tell you a miriad stories about how bad "my superpower" in fact is. Corruption, stupidity, short-sightedness, insane amounts of bureaucracy and rigidness, crimes aplenty in all kinds of endeavours, etc etc. Neither side is "better" or "worse", though - both fail in specific ways, and yet perform brilliantly in some others. Above is just one particular case of North Korea, expanded to involve methods of strategic bombing overall as discussion went on. In this particular case, yes i believe soviet method was significantly better than others parties'. But in no way it makes "my" superpower being better overall. Case by case basis, and it's all history, too - the only true value is whether or not you learn something useful from lessons history can give us. No matter which side you are.

    So, may be such occasions are good for reminding us all about particular mistakes of the past, regardless "which" side made them. Modern times, bombs still fall here and there. Schools and hospitals are still being hit sometimes. These mistakes will hurt attackers back the same way i described above. Better not to do those - i say this with only best intentions and wishes towards all the people of the West in general, and USA in particular.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  15. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Pretensions and presumptions aside, you're misconstruing criticism of the Worker's Paradise as pro-US flag waving. It's not. I'll be the first one to say the the 5-Star Shogun himself FUBARed things quite badly and they were lucky to salvage and armistice after his folly.

    I don't know where you're getting all this "we" nonsense. I wasn't there and have no vested interest in polishing it up. I'm just ridiculing the Norks, have you seen the Kim's state funerals? It's tragicomedy personified.
     
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  16. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    I'm taking it as a "yes", with much appreciation. Thanks again. Have a nice day! :ok:
     
  17. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well, it reminds me to the so called mass-drivers like they used them in some science fiction stories, where they basically simply hurl big asteroid/rocks/what-ever at the targets, which seems actually reasonable since the speed and mass of the object alone can be extremly devastating. A rock formation of a couple of meters in diameter alone, is enough to eventually level a whole city. It never seems really logical why space aliens would use complex and highly sophicistated energy weapons, when they could just bombard a planet with asteroids. Babylon 5, a Science Fiction series, actually made great use of that concept, when some alien race besieged a planet and all they did was bombarding it with asteroids.

    However, about 'fighting' in space, the Soviets actually developed various designs for space capsules with large guns on them decades ago! And I am pretty sure the US did as well.
     
  19. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    When you say fighting in space I can't help but think of this...

     
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  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well I wanted to avoid using Star Wars.