Siding with the Institute is the only sane choice

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by CT Phipps, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. Ediros

    Ediros A Smooth-Skin

    Feb 4, 2016
    Best ending kill everyone in commonwealth and commit suicide thus purging the retardness of bugthesda. 10/10, would pimp my uber pipe rifle again
     
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  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    The institute is a very underdeveloped faction whose motives, goals and beliefs are so poorly stablished that you end up wondering what the fuck just happened when you are done with their quest.

    They wanted to ape the "Commander Shepard speech" but their wirtting is so bad it just sounds like: I am going home and taking my ball with it!

    They basically make a grand speech about how they are just gonna continue holing themselves up in their underground city doing what they do. Nobody on the surface is even gonna give a shit afterwards.

    Fo4 just feels like they lost 3/4 of the script somewhere.
     
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  3. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    Synth gorillas are the future.
     
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  4. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    At no point in time did I think to myself "Boy, those institute fellows sure got their ducks in a row. And wow, they sure do make a lot of sense. They are paragons and morally upstanding people."

    Out of all the hodgepodge factions in the game I often found myself siding with the Brotherhood of Steel vs. anyone else. The reason I did is simply because they were at least committing to the BOS style and beliefs. Granted the BOS is just as wonky as everyone else, but at least they had straight forward priorities.
    "Join BOS+kill everything+loot and ammo=Profit".

    Every time I try to understand the institute a handful of new questions pop up, and their answers just end up contradicting the original position of the institute. They have no idea what their motivation is, have no real plan for the future other than "make synths+commonwealth+????=profit". They never actually elaborate on anything specific when questioned nor do they commit to any particular action or direction.

    They make it a point to dump their trash in to commonwealth, commit horrible crimes in the name of some ambiguous idea of what is good science, then justify their actions because science is good. Am I the only one that sees how incredibly wrong, broken, confused, and directionless they are?

    The funny thing is at no time do they even try to implement the scientific method, or actually control their experiments to ensure they obtain accurate results. Ruining people's lives with experiments that are half baked ideas, no control in parallel, and are not even properly observed does not make good science.

    In my opinion anyone stating that the institute is the only "sane choice" should sincerely take a moment to consider their sanity. As I cannot think for any moment that a logically minded individual would consider any of their actions sane, or remotely justified.

    From my perspective the institute is a collection of morally bankrupt inept techno neophytes that couldn't figure out the science of how a compass works let alone have any long term goals with some substance to them.
     
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  5. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Like I said, Shaun does not = The Institute.

    The Institute has a corrupt leader but is otherwise blameless.

    It's biggest moral mistake is its treatment of the Synths.

    And the Institute isn't trying to commit genocide against the Synths, which is the inevitable result of the other factions destroying the place.
     
  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    The Institute is not trying to accomplish anything as an organization. They are just aimless cartoon villains.
     
  7. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    May I ask what the problem with, "expand underground civilization and stay secure" is a problem?
     
  8. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    @CT Phipps, I'm not sure where you are coming from with this. The institute is in the middle of an internal struggle with itself based on differing views on how to approach a myriad of issues from Synth, Super Mutant, and even how to judge the common wealth.

    The leader isn't the only corrupt one directing policies in the institute, because if you take over the institute a coup attempt happens.

    Their problem with the synths is the fact that they even opted to create them in the first place. Not only are they divergent from the basis of design of Fallout they simply act as a Mcguffin to forward the plot. The Synth's themselves literally have no designed purpose or function other than to Mary Sue their way through the plot, all they use them for is subversion and their insidious experiments.

    Genocide does not apply to synths as they are not a race, they are machines designed by some wacky dudes in lab coats. The sapient argument really doesn't apply to them as they are only sentient, synths themselves lack the capacity to engage with philosophy or any critical thinking a human does. I'm a bit confused why people defend these toasters with opposable thumbs. What is this the Adeptus Mechanicus from 40K?

    The synth don't create, they don't advance anything, and they only use up resources. Might as well turn the institute into car manufacturers. At least then the plot might have been more interesting.

    From my perspective the best option for the commonwealth of silly things is to eradicate the "straw men" that are the synths. Doing that would literally solve a great many issues for the local population (and plot).

    As for the institute sitting around underground "minding" their own business, well that simply doesn't work. They tell the player that the institute itself is beginning to run down and fail, and that even their "technology" won't be able to maintain it much longer. How are they going to expand their civilization further underground if they lack the infrastructure to support it?

    Then we have the founder principle, the player doesn't encounter very many people in the institute. I can only assume a great deal of inbreeding is taking place, and that may have been motivator for the creation of the synth. However even then from what the institute says the synths are not to replace humanity. So that idea go right out the window. Considering the lack of population and available genetic material to support a civilization let alone a small town. I cannot think of any viable method that they can "expand" without breaking from their isolationist nature.

    I understand and respect that you enjoy the institute, however from a logic stand point they make absolutely no sense, and should not exist in the first place. I can understand if they once did exist in the past and the player encounters the ruins they left behind. However speculation is not the point of this topic.
     
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  9. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    The inevitable depleting of resources, the diminishing gene pool, the fact that they basically survive off raiding which means they are not self suficient and that they seem to watse their resources on projects they never do anything with? They don't even have a goal at all.
     
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  10. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    I am not sure how you have reached this conclusion. The Institute committed terrible acts before Shaun became Director and continued to do so afterwards.

    EDIT: Cleary the Institute, by making Shaun Director, supported him on the whole.
     
  11. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Did they? They were the people responsible for the Commonwealth government before it turned against them.
     
  12. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Last time I checked, the Institute failed for being responsible for the Commonwealth Provisional Government. They "preserved" it for 4 years but they failed so miserably that it fell apart (there is no information about what they did to "preserve" it at all), we do not know if the CPG was older than those four years either.
    They weren't the ones responsible for the government, they tried to preserve it (the note about it says they preserved it for four years, but it doesn't say they are responsible for it happening in the first place).

    They might have been the ones responsible for it's failure all along, with their meddling, we have no idea why it was failing already.

    And then there's Nick Valentine's account of why the CGP broke apart. Apparently the Institute representative in the negotiations was a Synth that ended up killing everyone. Doesn't sound like the people "preserving" the CPG liked it anymore and decided to finish it for whatever reason they had.
     
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  13. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    No, the Commonwealth claims the Institute is responsible but their records show the Institute was attacked by the locals ontop and that caused the Institute to withdraw from the surface.

    There's a voice recording where they talk about it.
     
  14. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    Expand and stay safe is such a generic motivation that no other faction needs to state it, because it goes without saying. That it's underground and perhaps a 'civilization' of sorts (barely, for some of the vaguer meanings https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/civilization) doesn't really add anything to it. If expand was 'reclaim the homeland' that would be something. If stay safe was 'eliminate Communism' that could be something. However, there are clearly some integral elements missing here.

    ??

    Nick Valentine: "The Commonwealth Provisional Government. Years back a group of settlements tried to get together and form a coalition. Every settlement with even a hint of clout sent representatives to try and hash out an agreement. Only the Institute sent a representative of their own, a Synth. The man killed every rep at the talks. The Commonwealth Provisional Government was over before it even got off the ground. I took up in town not long after. I was damn lucky they didn't just tell me to scram right then and there." Nick Valentine: "Course, when I took up there back when, people were just as scared of the Institute as they are now, maybe more. The massacre of the CPG was still pretty fresh in people's minds at that point, and folks were still losing sleep over the Broken Mask. Plenty of people assumed I was just a saboteur, moving in to melt down the reactor or poison the drinking water. But, at the time, they couldn't exactly turn me away." Publick Occurrences: "Ever since the "Broken Mask" incident of 2229, right here in Diamond City, when the first human-looking synth infiltrated and attacked a group of innocent settlers, we have lain awake in bed at night, terrified of the Institute and everything it represents."

    Father: "Oh, we've tried that. Surprised? The Institute once tried to help create a stabilized Commonwealth government. It ended in bickering, infighting... it was a disaster. No, we look after our own now."

    #52
    Look, Director, I'm going to make the same recommendation I did last time. We did everything we could. Four years dedicated to preserving this "Commonwealth Provisional Government." You've seen the same reports I have. It's falling apart, and fast. We need a plan for what happens when that fall is complete. I know some of the other Divisions have suggested we just cut off all contact; hide underground and pretend nobody's home. That would, in my opinion, be a mistake. We can't just give up on these people. And with the Android program, we don't have to. We'll soon have the capabilities to deploy androids to the surface in great enough numbers to maintain order. Just... Just think about it, all right? Keep it in mind moving forward.

    #108
    Dammit, Galton... What the hell is going on down there? I have to convene an emergency Directorate meeting because of this screw-up. That synth was a prototype. It was absolutely not ready for field testing! I will be very clear: my legacy as Director will not be tarnished by your division's mistakes. I am going to find out exactly who approved any sort of operation above ground, and that person will be held fully accountable. The mess it caused in Diamond City threatens decades of work to keep us out of the spotlight...
     
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  15. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    It's almost as if 3 fourths of the Script went missing. Maybe that's where Toddy boy's 111000 words went.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  16. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    As NMLevesque showed by quoting the game sources. The Institute sent a Synth to the negotiations as a representative and the synth killed everyone... What do you expect the rest of the commonwealth should do after an act that was perceived as a war declaration? Of course the rest would fight the Institute.

    The Institute is so inapt that they always destroy what they are trying to achieve... Game story shows this over and over:
    • We would like to preserve the CPG, end up killing all the representatives and destroys the CPG.
    • Let's mess around with FEV (for reasons?), end up only kidnapping wastelanders for years and torture them while turning them into violent and stupid green orcs, and releasing then to the surface (for reasons?).
    • Let's make synths (for reasons?), ends up having rebellious synths that keep escaping and have to make an entire full department dedicated to chase and capture these fugitive synths (while most still manage to escape regardless of this department).
    • Let's make sure we expand and thrive in secrecy and away from the wastelanders, keep meddling in the wasteland, provoking kidnappings, torture, killings, releasing dangerous and murderous mutated orcs, replacing wastelanders with synthetic copies, etc.
      • Wastes more resources just meddling with the wastelanders than actually improving their own position/people.
      • Wastes resources making synths for reasons instead of finding the cure for actual serious health problems that affect mankind, like cancer.
    And so on.

    The institute makes so many evil things and don't even have justification for most. Over the years they have murdered, tortured, kidnapping a large number of people, make dangerous and violent abominations and released them to the wasteland, enslaves their own creations, replace humans with synths, etc. But it's all because SCIENCE! and to improve their condition and make sure they survive and thrive. I guess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
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  17. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    Have you forgotten about Vault 111? They murdered the entire Vault save for one person, for no good reason. If Shaun and his father/mother are useful, why not the rest of the Vault?
     
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  18. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    Also making synthetic Harambes has bigger priority than resistant crops, Shaun cancelled cybernetics program that helped Kellog live around a century (he was born before NCR was founded).
    Institute just has this stupid thing, that they create shit that no one needs (Supermutants, Gen 3 synths) and cancel or draw resources away from good projects.

    Can actually anyone remember reason they created Gen 3s, other than adding more references to Blade Runner?
     
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  19. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    It seems the more we dig into the Institute the more their house made of cookies and rainbows begins to crumble.

    Something that really strikes me as weird with the Institute is that they do all this science, but do nothing with it. It's like a bunch of edgy college kids trying to invent the worlds next infomercial invention to make a million dollars. Or their some super Otaku Hikikomori trying to make friends by making toasters kiss. Honestly the institute is more like a really bad fan fiction than a worth while faction.

    Seriously what in the world are they going to do with robo gorillas, FEV (Bethesda thinks just looking at FEV makes orcs), and synths. I think solid goals and philosophies would greatly help their position.
     
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  20. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    The Institute for some reason focuses a lot of time and effort to create Synths for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Even though they made artificial humans with organic brains they seem stubbornly insistent that they aren't sentient... even tho they use them to pass off for real people, routinely giving them the memories of real people. Why do they don't believe they are sentient? If they are all about science and not about emotion and supertition then they should know sentience is all about brain processes. Then they also seem dismissive of their own highest achievement, Shaun is dying of some vague disease that their Immortality technology apparently can't cure yet he never opts to transfer himself to a Synth, for reasons.

    Nothing about them makes really any kind of sense, it seems they just exist (like the Railroad) because they were mentioned in FO3 on a quest. They wrote themselves into a corner or the new writers just had no idea what to do with the 2 factions the previous writers made up and thus we end up with the Institute, cartoonish SIENCE! mad scientists that make the Think Tank look compossed and focused and the Railroad whose tunnel vision gimmick of "saving Synths" is basically the only thing they ever seem to do.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
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