So, should the SS have been a Synth or not?

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by CT Phipps, Dec 17, 2016.

What the title says

  1. Yes

    2 vote(s)
    9.1%
  2. No

    20 vote(s)
    90.9%
  1. lolpop109

    lolpop109 Mildly Dipped
    Modder

    Jul 14, 2016
    I think he just meant in a general level. Like their both trying to be RPGs and both have RGP elements. But yeah i'm confused too. I only really understand if its the urgement that its and RGP not in a good way of anyway much at all but people still call it that so therefore could be argued to be a RPG
     
  2. Risewild

    Risewild Vault Senior Citizen
    Modder

    Jun 14, 2014
    But unfortunately that is too generalized, by that logic most games could be considered RPGs. Super Mario would be a RPG, you assume the role of Mario or Luigi and decide which enemies to jump on when confronted with them, which blocks to headbutt, which pipes to go inside of, if you should get that mushroom or that flower, if you should try and jump the highest possible for the level end flag, if you go right or left, etc.
    Again I say, grab all the RPG games from all the RPG genres (P&P, cRPG, jRPG, Action RPG, Tactical/Strategy RPG, First person RPG, Isometric RPG, Third Person RPG, party based RPG, solo player RPG, etc) and see what they all have in common:
    -They all rely on how the character can use it's stats, skills, strengths, weaknesses, and personality to interact with everything and every situation in the game's world/universe. The world, it's people, it's obstacles, combat, speech, items, literally everything follows the rules that allow the characters (PC and NPC) to use their skills and shortcomings to surpass or fail challenges. Without those stats and skills, strengths and weakneses there are no RPGs. There is no doubt present that every single RPG has those until game distributors started to dilute what a RPG is (around early 2000's) because for some reason people who don't like RPGs thought it was cool to play RPGs and so they had to make games with some RPG features and call them RPGs for players to feel happy. Forget experience and forget leveling up, RPGs do not necessarily need those to be RPGs, forget choice and consequence, forget good stories, forget special abilities too. All a RPG needs is the stats and limitation on characters and the world to follow the same rules.

    What you seem to call RPGs are games where you don't always have those rules and skills and stats and limits but where you can pretend in your imagination that you are that character and that is not a RPG, that is way more akin to LARPing (which is people pretending in their heads they are this character and behave like it). Imagination =/= RPGs, while imagination enriches the RPG genre it does not dominate it.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  3. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Sep 17, 2016
    Okay, before I address the rest, people realize that LARPing stands for Live Action Role Playing, right? :) They are, in fact, roleplaying games with the two most famous LARP communities being Vampire: The Masquerade and Call of Cthulhu.

    But yes, for me, the litmus test of roleplaying game versus "game" is that you must be able to choose and affect the story. A Choose Your Own Adventure Book is a very limited but still accurate kind of roleplaying game. Bioshock: Infinite isn't a roleplaying game because you can't affect the story in any way shape or form.

    The Witcher and KOTOR are roleplaying games because you can choose multiple ways of responding to people and "play" your character even if your character is Geralt. Same for Dragon Age 2 and Fallout 4. Fallout 4 is a SHITTY roleplaying game but it's still a roleplaying game.

    Note, I still enjoyed F4 but it does very very badly at giving you choices.
     
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    If Fallout 4 is really a role playing game, than I feel even Doom qualifies as role playing game, hell even Mario games, where you have the choice to play as Mario and Luigi.
    The RPG part in Fallout 4 is maybe 5% of the game.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  5. Risewild

    Risewild Vault Senior Citizen
    Modder

    Jun 14, 2014
    Yes, but in LARP many times the rules are not followed or are bypassed by the actions of the players. In LARP the rules usually take a back step. In LARP the narrative, plot and player actions are more important than the ruleset. In actual RPGs the rules are absolute unless the GM changes then in some way (house rules) and then those house rules are absolute and the players have to obey them, while in LARP the players many times can avoid, bend or even break the rules so they can act the way they want. Basically LARP is more like a improvised theater play than a real RPG (role playing is not the same as roleplaying game, anyone can roleplay by pretending to be a specific character without any strings attached, but to play a roleplaying game you need to follow that game universe ruleset and have your own set of character stats, rules, strengths and weaknesses to interact with it).
    By that definition you are excluding several sub genres of RPGs. For example most jRPGs do not give you any choices that will affect the story. jRPGs always had a story set in stone, you would control this characters and follow this stories and quests, the only choice you had was what to name the characters you could control, what to equip, what attacks or spells/abilities to use during combat, what items to use and when. The same with many Action RPGs, for example in Diablo you have no choices about story at all, same with the Sacred games, the Titan Quest games, and the list goes on and on. Tactical/Strategy RPGs are also the same, all of them had missions where you played battles in maps (usually by turns) but most didn't let you choose anything story related either.

    See there? Your definition of RPG just excluded at least three different genres of RPG games. :confused:
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  6. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    But in RPGs, you don't just get to 'choose' and 'affect' the story, the RULES and the SYSTEM should still on top priority on dictating whether or not your 'choices' correspond well with your CHARACTER BUILD and how the BUILD affect the OUTCOME.

    I haven't frequented the Codex long enough to find an adequate discussion on whether or not a CYOA count as an RPG, since after all there are some Codexers who would proclaim how Age of Decadence was a 'glorified' CYOA, but here's my take: in CYOA, you merely chose an option and see how it goes. There's absolutely ZERO intervention by the RULES and the SYSTEM. Hell, a CYOA doesn't even have any RULES and SYSTEM like your proper P&P RPGs. So, because of lacks of RULES, SYSTEM, and CHARACTER BUILD, no, CYOA doesn't count as RPG.

    Since it doesn't seem anyone properly address this, I'm just going to remind you to remember well those two different quotes from both Tim Cain and Todd Howard, and how their differing mindset objectively affect how they make their games. On top of that, Mister Caption pointed out in his newest reviews how there was some guy (maybe even Todd Howard themselves) in Bethesda admitting how the character/skill system of the original Fallout(s) were too complicated.

    And if you haven't seen it already, watch this (Crni had shared it with you, but hey if it helps):


    No matter how you tried to twist and pretend, two different developers WILL have two different philosophy when making their games. Don't you dare try to tell me how the very fact that Fallout 3 with all of its' stupidity where after 200 years everything stayed stagnant and they STILL scavenge and oddly everything's STILL ripe for scavenging, were comparable, in any way or even at all, to New Vegas's focus on conflict between 3/4 factions of powerhouses.

    Seriously.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  7. Risewild

    Risewild Vault Senior Citizen
    Modder

    Jun 14, 2014
    I do consider some CYOA books RPGs, the Dungeons and Dragons old CYOA books had dice rolls and involved stats for combat and some spells, same with the Fighting Fantasy books too.
    On the other hand there are some CYOA books where all you do is read and choose which page you will read next and I don't consider those RPGs. Those I call Interactive Stories.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  8. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Now that you mentioned it, yeah I remembered there was some Codexer sharing the pic of those D&D's CYOA bookcover. I assume that, since it's CYOA, no GM/DMs needed when playing one, then?
     
  9. Risewild

    Risewild Vault Senior Citizen
    Modder

    Jun 14, 2014
    Yeah, doesn't need a DM. It already comes with a character sheet containing your character stats IIRC (I can't remember if we had input on the base stats or if they were already assigned). I used to have some when I was a kid, if I wasn't living on the other side of the world I would go dust them off and check. I even remember where I keep them in my parents house. I loved TSR's AD&D CYOA books when I was a kid, I also owned like 30 Fighting Fantasy books, then I played actual D&D and couldn't get into those books anymore since they were so simple and we were so limited in them.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  10. Arnust

    Arnust Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Feb 2, 2016
    It's even below-average action, even Borderlands made a way better FPS(-RPG) for me
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 4
  11. olestra

    olestra Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 26, 2016
    i missed this. i guess you didnt understand what i meant. it wasn't hostile, its just another general comment of frustration finding myself straining over a question of what would make fallout more interesting when there won't be any more interesting fallout games (the very fact being why i and probably enough other people come back to questions that always just make us feel worse)

    do i kno this is nma? noob? slack? idk ban me, i had an account before fallout 3 and never came back so you can consider this an alt. i probably wont figure out how to log back into it or want to be associated with the screenname on the faint chance it traces me back to depressing activist drama so the ban would stick, oh and added bonus of emphasis you don't just ban alt-right shitposters. not all trannies from 4chan are right wing, and i leave fallout to the inbred preppers who'v inherited it. so my closing words suck, but i promise to help vergil on their job hunt if we ever cross paths, i hold sway in a gay vegan dishwashing co-operative
     
  12. Risewild

    Risewild Vault Senior Citizen
    Modder

    Jun 14, 2014
    WTFITFAS?
    I think what @Hassknecht meant is that this is NMA, a place to talk, discuss, and post about anything Fallout. A forum for people to keep posting questions and other stuff like what if, what else, what now, etc of Fallout and any other post apocalyptic games and in lesser degree any other media.
    No one talked about ban or anything bad at all. Everyone who is "young" around here is called a noob, it is not with malicious intent that people here use the noob word.
     
  13. olestra

    olestra Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 26, 2016
    oh ya im not assuming maliciious, but i shitpost and he's a mod, and frankly idk what i have to say. i'v had ideas before but they'v not really meshed with this group. i'm not saying it's a conventional ban, but i'm tired, i have nothing to say, i just lurk; having a banned tag on my name might give me a chuckle. unless u want me to start talking abt synth vagina or something (you dont)
     
  14. naossano

    naossano Vault Senior Citizen

    Oct 19, 2006
    Being a synth could explain the limited dialogs options...
     
  15. olestra

    olestra Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 26, 2016
    that was actually the official pr response
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  16. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Dude, it was a joke based on the fact that NMA is the most infamously hopeless community when it comes to Fallout... Basically, asking hopeless questions is all this community ever does. There was absolutely no threat in any of that, if you perceived it so, I apologize. I did not intend to scare you or anything, it was really just a bit of self-deprecating humour and the usual noob-bashing that just happens when your account is younger than a year :D
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  17. Arnust

    Arnust Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Feb 2, 2016
    I'll become a man in a month! :aiee:
     
  18. JO'Geran

    JO'Geran Fallout 2 Apologist

    Oct 25, 2015
    Shut up noob!:seriouslyno:
     
  19. Arnust

    Arnust Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Feb 2, 2016
    Oldfag
     
  20. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    Hey I never received any noob-bashing. Does that mean I'm perpetually a noob or just another wanker now?