STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI (HUGE SPOILERS EVERYWHERE)

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by CT Phipps, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. IamDaEmper0r

    IamDaEmper0r First time out of the vault

    Jul 25, 2016
    I feel like I have to disagree with a lot of the people here. However this is a community built on Grognardery, and so that is to be expected. In many ways I think it is quite similar to Fallout 3 in many regards, in the sense that Rian Johnson, and Disney, seem to not understand many of the core themes and ideas of the original. Despite this, I do think it is a good movie, just not a good Star Wars movie, this is due to some excellent performances be it Benicio Del Toro, Andy Serkis, or Kylo Ren. However, it is crucially I believe a good movie not a great one, because I believe this is as the youtuber Sideways put it "They don't know what they are doing". I.e. Disney is writing the script safe. In the first movie they made an inoffensive movie with lots of show don't tell, and there was a bit of backlash so they mixed it up, and likely for the third film will change it up again. The reason for this is likely due to what Matt Colville describes as the fact that Disney don't think that Star Wars is about anything, they see a universe and a fanbase, and wonder how to milk it. Fundamentally like Fallout 1 & 2, the original Star Wars raised interesting questions about our world and how we interact with it, be it machinery in Star Wars, or Greed in Fallout, Disney/Bethesda don't understand this and just see money. As a result, the media we get lacks in originality, as shown with the constant homaging in TFA/Fallout 3 and the subversion of TLJ. However, I will say unlike Emil Pagaillo, Rian Johnson can at least write an interesting story, if not a great one. So while enjoyable as its own thing I don't think that these movies should be seen as a part of Star Wars, they just happen to exist.
     
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  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    With how virulent, mindless and often times non sensical defense this fucking movie is getting I am more than sure now that Disney laces the food for their movies with something and accompanies it with subliminal suggestions.

    I mean, this fucking movie getting the Cult treatment?
     
  3. IamDaEmper0r

    IamDaEmper0r First time out of the vault

    Jul 25, 2016

    I am not sure if this was meant to be addressed to me, or is this a more generalised comment? Also I wonder if you have talked to many people outside of the internet about TLJ. Because I have met, IRL, many people who have voiced the idea that it is not a bad movie just an above average one. I think that a lot of the vitriol is unrequired and that it is only because it is a "Star Wars" film, had it just been another Sci Fi film I doubt this level of hate would be poured onto it.
     
  4. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    It was in general. No offense meant to you I just got linked a video defending the movie from any and all criticism (including insinuation of racism in some points too, classic internet).

    No I haven't talked to too many people about the Last jedi outside the internet, mostly because nobody in the office watches them (except for someone who is a complete loon fanboy) and I am the only one among my friends who is pleb enough to watch movies in theatre.

    I doubt if this movie didn't have the Star Wars label or the Disney label it would get as much defense or love, the movie by itself is pretty hollow, has bad writing, bad pacing all around, depends too much on recognizing elements of the franchise to stay afloat and it's darb, dull and monotonous, probably the less stimulating high budget Sci-fi movie I've ever seen.
     
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  5. IamDaEmper0r

    IamDaEmper0r First time out of the vault

    Jul 25, 2016

    Well that's fine, it just seemed a bit strange/off kilter. While I would disagree about the bad writing, it is mediocre. I agree that it lacks substance in the way ANH did, in the sense of any deeper meaning. To me overall looking back I would say that it is an above average film, this is likely due to the strength of the actors, I do feel that they had a lot of fun with the movie and poured their hearts into it, which is sort of supported by the various interviews I have seen with the actors. Overall, I think that the fact that it had a budget of 200 million probably meant that it wasnt all bad as they could get good actors and a workable dialogue, along with stunning visuals.
     
  6. V.D.D.Williams

    V.D.D.Williams First time out of the vault

    Aug 29, 2017
    Disney: "What the...?! Who gave that man the script for the next 20 Star Wars movies?! At least he didnt give away the concept for the new astromech droid shaped like a fidget spinner.....DAMMIT!!!"

    As far as what the message of TLJ is, I would say its probably the same one EA gave with Battlefront 2: Corporations expect you to accept and like whatever they do with their new cash cow...I mean, Intellectual Property (or Licensed Product in EAs case), no matter how half-assed it is or how blatantly they show their contempt for their audience.

    On the nihilistic/post modern front, I may be biased in this since Im a big fan of KOTOR 2, but I do think that grey morality can have a place in Star Wars. That being said, it would require that someone competent handle such a project and commitment to it as the main theme of the movie, not something that is superficially touched upon in a subplot like they did in TLJ. Of course, since Disney is running the show, I am quite confident that:

    A) There is no way they would ever be capable of taking on such a theme in Star Wars without royally fucking it up, judging from their record thus far
    B) There is also no way they would ever attempt it, since theres not enough easy money in such an endeavour, which to me is a relief

    I can agree with you that there are good elements in the movie and people ought to give credit where credit is due, which they actually are but, subjectivity being what it is, not everyone necessarily agrees on which are the good elements.

    I dont think the vitriol is necessarily out of proportion. Neither Disney, nor Rian Johnson nor Jar Jar Abrams were born yesterday. They all knew what they were getting into. If they didnt want this level of scrutiny, then they shouldve made a new Sci Fi franchise, and then this "good movie that isnt great" would have been just fine.

    PS: Could you explain what "Grognardery" is? I googled it, but I didnt find any results. I suspect its "pretty much what Im doing right now", but a more detailed definition would be nice
     
  7. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    Honestly @Crni Vuk, I believe that's kind of a given. Sensibilities move on, not only the author's but your own as well. I think people would be equally as pissed if it was as binary as the OT anyway so they just decided to go with either what made more sense, the results of a coin flip or a mix of both.

    The Prequels and most media in their setting quite subverts the ideas of the OT retroactively, one of the most clear cut being the Jedi Order and its interplay with both Sith and the Republic's Galactic Government, mainly just the coat of hipocrisy, stubborness and overly safe teachings, which would eventually trigger the major events of the story yadda yadda.

    For instance, The Clone Wars build up on the Anakin that isn't really all that fond of the Jedi yet at the same time aspires in it. The main character conflict is that he just wants to save everyone, which only leads to the realization many characters and situations will confront him on it being an incredibly selfish and unplausible attitude, especially in war times such as the titular. He really can't stand sacrifice (becus his mom probably but that's never explicit) which guess what there's a shitton of it. That doesn't mean that conflict with his stance get him closer to the Dark Side and that he could be really dam ruthless if his judgement says it so.

    You can take all of this as a preface to the conclusions you already know, but lore importantly to give baggage to then when the main media to do that majorly failed at it.

    Also LOL there's an Empire 2.0 and Rebel Alliance 2.0 because they wanted to have another star wars trilogy without leaving any sense of familiarity, that's all. I could call the fact of all M&M's being identical as some really nihilistic theme, but it doesn't really deserve to be called evocative when it's not intended to, if anything but the idea itself is reinterpreted.

    Fuck me, never typing this much on a mobile again. Anyway, that this is the quite common case for semi cyclical sequels. I can recall that same statement, bar the hyperbolic expectations, talk about the Dark Souls series and how the games' universe suffering a cycle of entropy, rise, rebirth and fall for all civilization, history and the physical world, having an intended parallel with the sequelizing, with the last installment being literally and figuratively a meddled decaying clump of all that came before waiting for its impending death, for all the preceding to repeat again later. Honestly, it's cool but if it ever was a thing, it probably was just one of the writers shower thoughts. But you wouldn't be wrong because of how subjective is the interpretation of even the most shallow work can reach to be. I think that even if TLJ at some point in time intentionally is a subversive, postmodern take, it undermines to be just like it's expected to after. Sure, the Jedi are flawed. But aren't Jedi like AWESOME? Sure, Kylo is a mean bean who turned totally evil. But he really loves his parents and killing his father broke his will enough to (apparently that's the excuse) be defeated by a way weaker rival, and he wouldm'( kill his mom. Sure, capitalism, grrr! But... that's just a way to fill in the plot hole of where do Resistànce fleets and gear come from considering the armistice. Sure, animal abuse is bad, let's abuse animals some more but in a NICE way. Sure, innocent war casualties are bad but nobody with any real relevance did really go in a way to represent that. I could probably do this for just about every single element of this movie and k just want to go to sleep now. I'll try and watch that video but I think I've been elaborate enough already.
     
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Or, some franchises and stories are simply not meant to have prequels, sequels and continuation, because they are done and there is nothing else worth to tell.

    Star Wars is a binary story and it works as it's a (very) simplistic narrative. A typical heroes journey. And it works. That's why it's the narrative for so many really succesfull movies and stories out there. That doesn't mean that it should be done all the time and with every story. But there is no sense in changing it from a franchise that made its success with it. The core of Star Wars, certainly isn't gray morale or pushing some huge agenda down your throat - like how they tried at the casino planet. Yeah, we get it abusing slave children and space horses by a rich society is evil as shit.

    But we're talking about Disney here after all, and the thing that counts the most for them, is market value, not what Star Was was about or why Lucas and his friends actually made A New Hope.

    Star Wars as a franchise in it self lends extremly badly to world building, it's not like let us say Dune. Even though Star Wars is sometimes seen as it, it is not Science Fiction, maybe 10% of it is Sci-Fi, calling it that is like saying a bicycle is a car, because it has wheels. Star Wars shares more with LotR than with typical Sci-Fi in that regard, but even here, you could squeze a lot more world building out of LoTR than SW, simply because Tolkin himself, actually build a whole world with a history before he created The Hobbit and LotR. Lucas made A New Hope as an homage to the old movies of his youth, the stuff he enjoyed as a child, Flash Gordan type of movies and something like that, they stole a hell of a lot of content from other movies too.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they actually believed that A New Hope would never gain so much attention by audiences. And I think a lot of the ideas for Prequels and back stories, came actually much later.

    To say this, I am only talking here about the movies, not the expanded universe with comics, books, games you name it as I think it was never meant to be a franchise with a lot of intriguing and very elaborated plots and characters behind it, with those huge back stories and all.

    Star Wars is schlock. It always was. It always will be. It's very entertaining schlock. But at the end of the day, that's still it. Nice fantasy for (grown up) children. And getting any 'gray morale' in to that, is simply making it a worse experience over all.


    It contains a hell of a lot bad writing. For example the part where Luke would think for a moment to kill his Nephew as he might fall to the dark side, which serves as explanation why Kylo Ren was pushed to the Dark Side. That's bad writing. As Lukes character would simply not act in such a way, from all we knew of the old movies.

    Better writing would be, if Luke decided to not train Kylo anymore telling him that he's not a student of his anymore serving as a trigger pushing him to the dark side and Luke leaves the temple to the elders to tell Leia his decision. And when he returns, he sees his temple in ruins where Kylo asked the students if they are with him or against him.

    Or almost every dialog between Fin and Rose. Rose in particular was a strange character which I guess the Audience was supposed to like because she worked in a meaningless position and her siste died heroically in a bomber. Again, bad writing.

    Good writing would have actually showed some interaction between her and her sister, before she died in the battle. A good movie does such stuff.

    Or the whole way how Snoke was treated, building up a character in The Force Awakens, teasing him as a kind of master mind working behind the scenes ... just to kill him off without any after thought? It makes you simply wonder, who is this guy, why is he so strong with the force? And why has no one heard about him ever before? Nonexistant writing, is also 'bad' writing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  9. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Mildly Dipped

    Oct 26, 2016
    The fandom has gotten a little too embedded with the franchise. I can tell Rian is trying to set up his universe for the next trilogy (Jedi chosen one mythos is all bullshit, anyone can be a jedi, etc), but I'm afraid that he's just going to write himself into a shallow hole where he's stuck inserting familiar elements so it's not just generic sci-fi. Lightsabers, Imperials, Wookies, etc. That or Kathleen Hackennedy and Disney are just going to stipulate that he includes nostalgic crap so that old and newer movie-goers (kids) can experience the magic for the nth time.

    EA felt a third-person Star Wars action game without wookies and lightsabers would perform poorly, so they axed Visceral's project (as well as the studio) and moved the project to another studio that would just turn it into a "game as a service."

    Disney has essentially the same perspective.

    She was included as a response to criticism that there's no romantic subplot in the movie. It's hamfisted, shallow, and far too corny at certain points. Idk why they didn't just develop Rey's possible interest in Finn or Poe. Or do that bromance between Finn and Poe that people have theorized. Everything is so sterile and sexless, and even Luke has been seemingly reduced to this exiled virgin even though he had all this hot-blood pumping through his veins for Leia (before RotJ).

    Another bigger issue is that there's comics and books which talk a lot about these details that aren't explained in the movie (maybe Snoke was mentioned and extrapolated on as a character in some obscure work). It's just that there's 0 expectation for the average audience member to be someone who eats Star Wars literature day and night, so that information is lost to everyone but hardcore wookiepedia-thumpers.
     
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  10. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    Wasn't everybody already able to become a Jedi if they tried? Wouldn't a better way of illustrating this be if there were more than 2 Force users in the entire movie? How about instead of ocusing on a single boring encounter between 2 factions they instead introduced more factions or people who could use the Force and on the way also introduce new situations not seen in previous movies? Wouldn't that also play better with the theme of discarding the new and the world changing if the whole Empire vs Rebels shit had been done with at the beginning of the movie and instead introduce new treats and conflicts?

    I mean if their idea of "Subverting expectations" is just premature ejaculation then no wonder this is the best they could come up with.
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Makes you wonder where and how this whole clusterfuck of a story will actually end. I mean TLJ is basically a 'reset' of the whole franchise and everything that happend in TFA simply doesn't really matter anymore at this point.

    They really pushed them self in a strange situation ...
     
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  12. Supermarauder

    Supermarauder Supposed PAYDAY Gang Member

    May 23, 2016
    And this is why you don't switch screenplay writers in a trilogy folks!!! (The differing visions destroying consistency is my point)

    Edit 1: I mean unless you're ESB where that doesn't apply. :P
     
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  13. Danuis

    Danuis Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 6, 2016
    TLJ has made its profit; we'll be seeing a sequel and another trilogy unless the Sequel is a huge failure.

    The last movie will see Hux and Ren and Rey fight each other. Poe and Fynn will appear and fight. The First Order will either lose or win, the latter might be the huge twist - maybe Hux wins the power struggle and becomes Emperor, thus setting up the next trilogy being 1) rebels, 2) fighting the Empire. Ren dies in either case, though. Poe and Fynn might also die.

    Rey lives, but I can see her pulling a Luke and running off to establish a new order of Paladin-esque Force Users.
     
  14. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Hux can't win, at least not at the end of the movie. Star Wars is now about the deconstruction of the mediocre white man, so it will be necessary to show that Kylo Ren isn't that powerful, that, dunno, Rose is a better pilot than Poe, and that Hux really is even more incompetent than previously shown.
     
  15. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Mildly Dipped

    Oct 26, 2016
    I just had this thought as I was painting, but why didn't Anakin's force ghost just show before the events of TFA and tell his emo grandkid not to worship his burned out remains?

    Yoda seems to have no issue visiting Luke, and Obi-Wan regularly spoke to Luke through the force.
     
  16. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    That would have been consistent and bad for the plot.
     
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  17. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Mildly Dipped

    Oct 26, 2016
    It's pretty bad that even George Lucas had Qui-gon Jinn screaming at Anakin while he was killing sand people.
     
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  18. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Well, I think Ben, Yoda, and Anakin were not supposed to come back to guide him as Force Ghosts after RotJ, I think. At least they didn't really in the old EU, they guided him on the right path and then it was Luke's own responsibility.
    But seeing as they do appear in TLJ that's out of the window as well.
    I guess having the Force Ghosts around all the time would be too much deus ex machina at times.
    "Hey Anakin, don't trust Palpatine. He's betraying you. Just a heads up."
     
  19. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Mildly Dipped

    Oct 26, 2016
    I feel like Palpatine was a bit of an enigma because he operated under the noses of the Jedi, even entertaining several. I suppose one logical explanation could be that straying to the dark side (even just a dip in the pond) causes a severance...? So him butchering sand people was that nudge towards being emo and Quigonn was like fuck it, pass the space booze.

    I don't know anymore. This universe is so plagued with minutiae that I have hard time looking for consistency in it.
     
  20. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Yeah, it was never really consistent. But enjoyable at least, and you could suspend your disbelief enough most of the time.
    With TLJ I'm really hard pressed to that.
     
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