Stupidity

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Fins, Jan 5, 2018.

  1. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Not a joke, but I do know that this precision is certainly possible. I've been active in the german Quake community for a few years and know all the tricks and whistles from back then. It's just what some people in the mid 90s claimed. It obviously wasn't enough, because trackballs and joysticks never caught on.
     
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Those who never enjoyed mindless schlock, may throw the first glittering gem of hatred.
     
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  3. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    True. But not all the time, if you see what i mean. It's OK now and then, but it's not if it's so "mainstream" and "normal" kids have nothing else to easily get busy with. I think.

    And again, it may be a worry, but certainly no hatred in any case - from me. Most people think it's "bad" and/or "wrong" to be an idiot (in any particular case or in general), but me, i tihnk it's a blessing and completely alright to be an idiot. There is no one's guilt in it. None. It's just that certain practical potential consequences for the collective which worry me about it. Sadly we don't live in heaven where everything we need is growing on a tree and every trouble is solved by God so that we all can be mindlessly happy.
     
  4. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    (Quick explanation: "Glittering Gem of Hatred" is a running gag on NMA after the NMA community was called "glittering gems of hatred" for their perceived bitterness and strong feelings about Fallout)
     
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  5. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    Somehow i missed this post earlier. Just read it.

    You're right about nothing in my sentense mentioning combat, and about lack of telepathy on our parts. Nonetheless, i definitely didn't mean hobby and sport, and i keep hoping the context allowed anyone to figure out i spoke about shooting a rifle in combat situations - not sport nor hobby. Eat me. :D

    Much interesting story about your army times, but i am still sure you are dead wrong about light guns. Dead wrong! Details:
    I did rifle shooting in the past as a sport and achieved higher skill than ~90% of people in my range, able to hit a dime 100% of the time at 50 meters distance - without optics, mind you. Static one though, not moving. But i had my fair share of pistol shooting as well, 25 meters range, both static and moving targets. So i know what you're talking about very well. And i still disagree. Simply because sheer mass of bones, muscles and the weapon itself which are to be moved substantial distance (we talk dozens centimeters here) prevents you from doing it as quickly as you could move a mouse for just ~1 cm to a side (which with right sensitivity is all you need to hit a target to the side in an FPS game). It's not for argument; it's just physics.

    But i suspect i know why you think otherwise. You yourself witnessed high enough level of precision and speed of shooting using real firearms. But i suspect you did NOT experience, 1st-hand, comparably high level of precision and speed when doing FPS games - "professionally", if you want to put a label to it. But i did. In early 2000s, i was one of 10 people who won my country's Counter-Strike championship (i was in the reserve 5-man team, and regular sparring partner). I've seen highest levels of precision and speed humans can achieve in FPS games, and at the time, was able to perform at those levels myself, as well. And it's mind-boggling fast and precise. When you're "into" this sort of concentration, time nearly stops and you act so fast others often don't even notice your aim movements. I myself routinely did aimed headshots with a pistol while in the air (mid-jump) so fast that enemies simply failed to react - and those enemies were not some casual gamers, but folks who earned good money outta winning all sorts of regional CS tournaments. Those enemies were folks who refuse to play if latency of local network of the tournament is above 5 ms, or if PCs they play with produce less than 150 FPS (and back then we had LCD displays which were able to actually display that many, of course). They react in ~50...80 ms when "in the mood", by shooting your character in the face, quite precisely, their reflexes are honed that much. And still i developed tactic and skill to take 'em out spmewhat reliably with such headshots, back in the day, jumping outta some corner and feeding 'em lethal headshot before they could react. Means, i was able to 1) see the target, 2) aim the weapon and 3) pull the trigger all in less than ~60ms - doing it with enough precision to land a headshot to human-shaped figure up to few dozen meters away, that is. Never at long range, as CS (back in the day) simply did too much bullet scattering from my favorite USP pistol at longer ranges. Still it was one valuable skill of mine, sure helped our team in tournaments and contributed to shaping everyone up during sparring sessions. Made lots of people furious, too. Good old days... :)

    In other words, mouse allows you to aim and take a good-precision shot in under ~1/20th of a second - if and when you got enough skill for it and FPS game you play is real-time enough (one of most important features of "true" Counter-Strike, which is beta versions 1.6 and lower, - is extremely low delays for everything, with good hardware and LAN it's practically true real-time interaction). And with all due respect to real pistol masters, i simply know they can't do the same that fast. Most of that amount of time, - 1/20th of a second, - will be spent for one's brain processing visual information about target's whereabouts, means less than 1/50th of a second is left for actual mouse / arm movement to aim the weapon and pull the trigger. Muscles, distances and forces involved make it possible to do with a mouse - that fast, - but impossible with any real or light gun. I am sure.

    Now what you see in most modern FPS games, both single-player and especially multi-player, - is surely much more sloppy and lagged. What i just described requires special hardware (quite expensive, and properly set up, too - things like more than 0 buffered frames in your GPU will already ruin things much), strictly local network (internet latencies are just too high), people who spent couple years or more to hone their reflexes, training for it on daily basis, to play with - and comparable experience on your own part as well. Any single of those 4 requirements missing will pretty much disable your ability to properly estimate what "good laser mouse" hardware can do. Very few people have ever experienced this, but i did, and i know what i am talking about.

    And yes, i am a bit worried about slowly degrading myself. I hear all your advice, and it's all true i think. Thank you for it! Good point about stimulation, i know what you mean. Hopefully it'd be enough to prevent any substantial brainpower loss. Even if not, what else could one do, right?

    Been a pleasure to talk with ya!
     
  6. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I think you mean CRT monitors, not LCD?
    But even those could only do 150 Hz at lower resolutions, usually...
    In idTech engine games people usually capped at 125 fps because of an engine bug that allowed for better strafe jumping.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  7. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    Correct, CRT, of course. Didn't use neither acronim for a long time, those days "IPS" is the only LCD kind i ever bother to have any interaction with, so both terms are old past for me, which is why placed one instead the other...

    I don't remember what was exactly max frame rate of CRTs which were standard issue for those tournaments we played back then, but i do remember why we all were pressing organizers to provide PCs which could go well over 200 FPS in CS back then: CRTs don't refresh the same way modern panels do, CRTs refresh the picture "row by row", so basically the more FPS you squeeze outta your GPU, the "more up to date" every given row of pixels on your CRT will be. Those we played on were probably some 100...120 Hz, yes. But we _felt_ when we had less than 100 FPS, you don't see it anyhow, but you feel it via your reflexes because you're not able anymore to do as good as you "usually" do when you're 150+ FPS. It's pretty much the same feeling if you play with LAN latencies being like 10...20ms - those are "undetectable" by human being on paper, but in practice any experienced "old time" CS / quake tournament player will tell you they very much are, everything feels "heavy" when such delays are present, lots of shots you normally do just fine end up not hitting intended targets, etc.

    We ran some tests during sparring sessions in our home network (which at the time was over 700 home PCs plugged into one same huge LAN, which was our "base of operation" and basis of the strength of our team), to make sure the effect is real and not a product of imagination, back then - and got conclusive results: two very similar (by skill) players of our team were doing exactly near-similar score against each other when both playing 150+ FPS machines, but each of them was losing with about 1:2 to 1:3 ratio to the other if playing on a "usual" machine doing ~90 FPS, while the other remained on 150+ one.

    But such a dramatic difference we only observed when two top-notch players played duels vs each other. After some level of skill, the guy who lands the 1st hit on the other guy, in CS - almost always ends up killing that other guy, and also at such skill level most of the time 1st shots they do - usually hit the enemy (i.e. they rarely miss their 1st shot), so it becomes a matter of "who shot 1st". Mediocre-skill players of our LAN were times closer in their score given same test. And i suspect guys who we've seen as "mediocre" in our LAN would in fact be "very strong" FPS players in any modern coop FPS, with that. So it's really on the edge, you gotta practice for over a year for like at least couple hours every day to even get a chance to become that good (provided you got some talent to it and love the game; otherwise no amount of training would allow, we've seen such cases aplenty).

    P.S. I never was any good in Quake, so don't know about idTech engine thing. Old Counter-Strike is using Half-Life engine, GoldSrc. I know it's "based" on Quake engine, however Valve states most of the code in GoldSrc is their original creation. But most importantly, i know from my own experience how both engines play, and differencies between CS and Quake 1 are so vast that it definitely feels like two completely different engines at work. Thus i wouldn't be surprised the least if said 125 FPS idTech bug would be absent in old-time Counter-Strike versions. Besides, strafe jumping itself in old CS (up to beta 1.6) was reduced to negligible effect - you could get a tiny little bit faster doing it, but it was very minor difference.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  8. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Just to point out that (in my opinion) modern light guns with VR are the way to have the best precision in FPS at the present.

    It simulates quite accurately how real life shooting happens. And the capability of being able to look around without having the aim always be at the center of the screen and without having to press keys or buttons (you control the view with your own head movements) allows for a more natural and better "awareness" of the environment and enemies, while allowing to react and aim faster.
     
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  9. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dark side in da houssah

    Nov 22, 2009
    Interesting. Didn't know that type of thing is available. Might have to start upgrading PC and getting VR and 'pew pew' - laser gun and and and...
     
  10. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Looks pretty accurate to the real thing and will require actual skill to use properly too. Just like shooting a real rifle against moving targets.
     
  11. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Yeah, but it will be better to equip soldiers with keyboard and mice, it's just so much more precise. Imagine marines strafejumping through battle headshotting everyone left and right! Why aren't we funding this??
     
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  12. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    Faster than pregnant elephant - that may be. Faster than a pro gamer using a mouse - nope. Good thing you gave a video. Now i can show you how _slow_ that lightgun is. Literally.

    Go ahead and download that video (safefrom.net, etc). Then use classic media player (bundled to K-Lite codec pack and such, officially free). Open that video with said classic media player. Pause. Fast forward to 1:42. Now hit "right" button on your keyboard - repeatedly, slowly, checking time mark after every press. This progresses through the video one frame at a time. This particular video is ~30 FPS, each frame is ~33 ms when played back real-time. Now watch the time. As soon as it hits 1:43 - you're at the 1st frame of 103rd second of this video.

    3 frames later, the guy starts to raise that light gun because he's aiming to kill the creature which jumped on him. You just see how that light gun goes up in his hands.

    He finishes his aiming and pulls the trigger yet 7 more frames later, as we can see in 11th frrame of 103rd second in the form of start of weapon muzzle fire.

    I.e., it took him ~7 frames of this video to aim his gun and pull the trigger. 7 x 33 = 231 ms. Almost 1/4 of a second. In any professional FPS tournament, player who take 1/4th of a second to aim will be utterly and completely destroyed. Heck, in any "amateur" home FPS network he will also be utterly destroyed, even by kids who like play FPS shooters and know couple things about proper setup for their mice and GPUs! .23s for aiming in any good FPS is just way too slow, you see. Way too slow.

    P.S. You may also note how narrator of the video carefully and properly says, quote, "... it feels _extremely_ accurate compared to any other lightgun game i've ever played". Yeah, this, i can believe - may be this particular light gun is massively more accurate than other lightguns, ones of the past. But in compare to mouse, it will inevitably lose. Note how tip of that light gun travels for over 10 cm during above described 7 frames of this video to make an aimed shot. In no way in the world can any human do that kind of move faster than any good FPS player doing less than 1 cm movement with a mouse. Arms just can't move the darn thing that fast. Period.
     
  13. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    This is entirely different issue, Hassknecht. I entirely agree light guns hone reflexes very similar to ones needed to wield real-world guns. I entirely agree that new one Rosewild shown through that video is a good step forward in attempts to make VR more viable and popular. It's just that we discussed FPS games above, and those are games, not real life.

    It's like Olympic games, sort of. Take the staple thing - running - as an example. There are sportsmen who spent pretty much their whole life becoming better runners. Some sprint, others marathon. Their whole body is shaped to achieve peak performance in those "artificially defined" specific distances. In no way that ability will directly benefit their country or even themselves in "real life", - it's purely for Olympics and all sorts of athletic tournaments, pure sport. They often even sacrifice much of their health to achieve those top results, you know. And yet they do it, and there is big-time discussions of their skills, achievements, features, etc. Much like what we had above for "mouse vs light gun".
     
  14. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    I'm not sure how skill and general ability in clearly action focused games is supposed to make you any less stupid-er than what many more genres could and better, though. I know plenty of people who are particularly able with fighting and tactical shooters yet don't know shit about othert fields of culture. As someone said already; you can consume the most inane media and as long as you keep that nut of yours busy with more cerebral media now and the, being creative or soaking in art or even the average book. I, myself, don't see how SOLELY playing videogames, which is what you need to reach such levels of ability, supposed to make you any more of an eminence than anyone else or even dumber. Sick, more likely though.
     
  15. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Hm, yeah, considering how most people can only apparently sprint for like 20 meters before getting totally asthmatic when using a keyboard it's probably not a good idea.
    On the other hand, people can jog forever when doing that. And the Doomguy can run at like 60 km/h for unlimited amounts of time using a keyboard, so maybe if we equip our soldiers with early 90s keyboards they'll also be unstoppable rocket-powered-wheelchair-bound killing machines!
    Why. Are. We. Not. Funding. This.
    Imagine the periods to be that Twitter-handclap-emoticon.
     
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  16. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    Arnust: oh, the whole thing about lightgun vs mouse is off-topic here, so yeah, no connection.

    Hassknecht: sarcastic? Misplaced, if so. The art of FPSing is just that: an art. Not everyone can appreciate it, but there is much special in it once you're doing it yourself at good level. It's a thing impossible to do in real life, but it's a thing nonetheless. May i suggest to just see 10 seconds of the following video starting from 1:00 mark, where one good Quake 3 player makes near-instant aim, shoots a missile and kills his enemy, because he knew the map, he knew where his opponent would likely try to go in that given area and that given combat situation, and shot a missile to the spot where he expected his opponent go - i bet all that without "thinking" about it, just reflexes. It's like a form of predicting the future, in a way. Like i said, it's an art.
     
  17. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I'm not sarcastic, I'm making a joke.
    And as I've said before, I was involved with the Quake 3 scene for quite a while, I'm aware of this.
     
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  18. Fins

    Fins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 31, 2017
    "maybe if we equip our soldiers with early 90s keyboards they'll also be unstoppable rocket-powered-wheelchair-bound killing machines!". Can't see how it's a joke when being placed after #53 just above, which was done primarily for you. Sorry. Probably my fault. %)
     
  19. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    It's about the whole "lightguns train for real weapon use but mice are more precise" thing. The joke is taking the whole "conflating video games with real life" too far, essentially claiming that somehow pressing a button on a keyboard turns you into Doomguy on his rocket-powered wheelchair.
     
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