The Honesty of Bethesda:Fallout 76 against Fallout 4.

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by TheOtherManInTheRoom, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    Mar 28, 2018
    This may somewhat tie in to the 'worst Fallout game' thread but I felt it needed fleshing out more.

    In my opinion, Fallout 76 is likely better than Fallout 4. Why? Because it is honest.

    95% of Skyrim quests: Go here, kill this, loot this, and return. (different series, and some here like it, but whatever, it's my least favourite game I've ever played so I can't resist.)

    95% of Fallout 4 quests: Go here, kill this, loot this and return.

    95% of all Fallout 76 quests: Go here, kill this, loot this and do not even return.

    On the face of it, yep all looks pretty much the same.

    However, the difference is that in Fallout 4 (and skyrim but irrelevant) they pretended they wanted more than that. See faction choice in Fallout 4, or some meagre offerings in quest solutions being different, even though the game or endings structurally does not differ. Even, the faction choices are hampered by the complete rubbish they provided to choose between (that everyone knows here.)

    Thus, Fallout 76 is honest at least. It scraps all but the formula that Bethesda has cared about since Fallout 4 (in the Fallout series.) It does not attempt to pretend it is anything but such a gameplay loop, and does not try and deceive people it is an RPG. In not doing so, it allows people to truly understand what Bethesda games are all about really, and can therefore be called a more honest product than Fallout 4.

    The fact that only diehards (who I observe regularly on other forums that I shall not mention) can defend it thus just shows what happens when this truth is shoved in peoples faces as it has been.

    Would be interested in hearing your educated opinions on this matter. Though stylistically anathema to most of us as Fallout 76 is, surely we can appreciate that Bethesda is not pretending anymore.
     
  2. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish ...I Remember...

    Sep 11, 2010
    With Fallout 76 they barely told us anything and were as vague as they could about the product. We also have the canvas bag fiasco being a nylon bag and nuka rum being misadvertised as a bottle too. They also said that there would not be lootboxes but they seem to be waiting for the right time to implement the lunchboxes and people suspect that perk cards were originally meant to be a lootbox kind of thing.

    I really fail to see how Fallout 4 was less honest than Fallout 76.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 7
  3. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    Mar 28, 2018
    I'll clarify then (probably could have made things clearer, my apologies.)

    Yes fine, from a marketing perspective Bethesda were terrible. The lies told by the company were pathetic with the bag and the misunderstanding over how multiplayer the game was. In that respect, yeah fine, I see your point.

    But from a purely gameplay perspective, of the loop I described above, does anyone see where I am coming from? That the system of quest design in 76 is a more naked kill-loot-return loop than the one dressed up as something more complex like 'save the helpless settler's' or 'Go to the institute, kill everyone, loot everything (and then blow it up) dressed up as the moral crusade to save the Wasteland from their (ill-defined) plans.

    I guess I may be asking in the wrong place since most members (myself included, this is all merely from many ill-spent hours observing) have not played the game (and should not.) I just wondered if people could see this point from purely gameplay and the quest design philosophy.
     
  4. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish ...I Remember...

    Sep 11, 2010
    Skyrim was mostly "go here, kill/grab/find something, return" so I expected that gameplay formula from Fallout 4. We also got to see the perk chart early on so I knew what to expect from that too. We also knew there'd be a voiced protagonist and a dialogue wheel and more often than not that ends up being different flavours of the same answer so I knew it'd be linear and not offer much of any chocie. We also saw the crafting system and from Bethesda's previous shit balance I knew it was going to be shit as well. Same thing for damage sponge enemies. And settlement crafting was never given any further details but "you can do it" so I assumed it'd end up being pointless like so many other things in Bethesda's games and sure enough it was.

    I still don't think Fallout 76 is less honest than Fallout 4.

    Fallout 76 deserves every little bit of shit flung at it.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  5. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    It is what they aim to do. They will step back a bit as the game had poor rating, but they will come back to it eventually, once they get a gimmick that will help them sell their next multiplayer attempt.
    There is not much to discuss that we haven't already discussed 9 years ago.
     
  6. Millim

    Millim The Big Straight Orderite

    Oct 13, 2010
    I can see where you're coming from, putting the game into a separate entity from the marketing, but even then I'll have to disagree.
    F4 knew what it was, it knew it was horseshit. It didn't even try to cover it up. It contradicts not only established Fallout lore, but also itself. They put out DLC that went against the ideals of the game itself.
    Fallout 4 is painfully honest with itself, heck, even the story was about how the fake counterpart was replacing the real thing. Betehsda knew they were the androids to New Vegas' reality, but that still didn't stop them.

    All they did with Fallout 76 was repackage that exact game, still somehow being even more of an "Android" than Fallout 4.

    On a side note, as much as I dislike Fallout 4, it's miles better than 76. I actually wouldn't be surprised if F76 was just released to make F4 look like a masterpiece.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  7. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix 4 INT Legionary

    Jun 25, 2018
    ^this.

    I’m ashamed to admit that I enjoyed 4, because I saw it as dumb fun. When I think about what it is too much I get depressed, but at the very least it had fun parts. It was soulless. I played 76 for 4 hours and with a friend (the way it’s apparently “meant” to be played) and it was... less than soulless. Like it took part of my soul, and I want it back.
     
  8. Millim

    Millim The Big Straight Orderite

    Oct 13, 2010
    Honestly, with Fallout 4, there was a 30 hour radius (Between the 10 hour-40 hour mark) that I too had a lot of fun. I enjoyed the Settlement Building and the Open World FPSness. But after that 40 hour mark, it just became a chore to play.
     
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  9. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix 4 INT Legionary

    Jun 25, 2018
    I actually mentioned this in another thread, but I liked the Pickman Gallery sidequest and a few others. I also thought it was hilarious how the Brotherhood is like “we’re protecting the people of the Commonwealth” then you get an assignment from Proctor Teagan that’s literally “shake these poor farmers and their family down for supplies”
     
  10. Black Rose

    Black Rose Bring me to life

    Dec 5, 2018
    I enjoyed the Blind Betrayal quest, it's my favorite one in all of 4, because I got to tell Maxson that his order was ridiculous. The Brotherhood in 4 ARE ridiculous. They care about the Commonwealth yet are the most intolerant and self-absorbed faction in the game. Blow them up. I know I felt better.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  11. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix 4 INT Legionary

    Jun 25, 2018
    Lel. I like to side with them if only because I get cool shit at the expense of feeling like a total fucking asshole. That, and what’s the alternative? THE MINUTEMEN?! HAHAHAHAH *coughs phlegm and blood*
     
  12. Millim

    Millim The Big Straight Orderite

    Oct 13, 2010
    There isn't a quest in Fallout 4 I liked. The closest was probably that one where you go in Kellogg's head, and that was mostly because I liked the set rather than the Gameplay. Honestly, that sequence should have been cut out and I actually liked the weird surrealness of it.
     
  13. Black Rose

    Black Rose Bring me to life

    Dec 5, 2018
    I do enjoy all the cool stuff the BOS gives you...

    But the Minutemen, as far as who best to side with depending on morals, have all the other factions beat. It's a shame Bethesda made them the most annoying.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  14. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix 4 INT Legionary

    Jun 25, 2018
    Oh trust me, morally I’m a Minuteman. I just don’t think they’re viable.
     
  15. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Oct 26, 2016
    They totally were. Battlefront 2 swiftly killed the idea of their (Bethesda's) original pay-to-win model.
     
  16. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish ...I Remember...

    Sep 11, 2010
    It makes me wonder how many games would've had awful lootboxes in them if Battlefront II hadn't blown up the way it did.
     
  17. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    Perhaps I'm the jaded cynical asshole here but, anything related to Bethesda being considered "honest" is stretching the definition of honesty well outside it's intended definition.

    Neither Fallout 4 nor Fallout 76 were honest in their marketing or game play. Sure one can remember what they enjoyed about various aspects about both games to apply a rose colored tint, yet that does not produce a satisfactory answer or description.

    Its asinine topics like this that confound me. As if scraping the bottom of the barrel for something nice to say about a product purchase that overtly scammed the consumer. No matter how one looks at either title, neither of them are satisfactory Fallout products nor experiences. They may be enjoyable if the player completely ignores all the Fallout "related" content however, they egregiously obfuscate what Fallout is to overtly abusive levels.

    Let me outline something for those that are willing to paint these titles in their own subjective rose colored views. The kill, loot, return mechanic is a 3 point system; Most commonly used with mobile games and by those still learning to make games. Such a system has no place in a personal computer release nor a Fallout title. These systems are casino mechanics, commonly known as skinner box mechanics. If you as an individual find such systems enjoyable, then I strongly suggest that you never gamble in a casino.

    Both titles are overtly deceptive, and there's nothing honest about them.

    I feel like every time I engage in discussions like these its like talking to legion slaves about why being a slave sucks, but the slaves prefer being whipped to death and leaving in squalor.
     
  18. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix 4 INT Legionary

    Jun 25, 2018
    Hey... leave our slaves out’ve this. They don’t have time to talk to you, they’ve fucking work to do.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  19. Octavian

    Octavian It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jun 16, 2018
    If you evaluate games as a consumer product, then you care only for the entertainment to dollar ratio. And 76 loses because its buggy to the point where its almost unplayable

    Your point has merit if you evaluate games as art I suppose, but both 4 and 76 are such garbage its hard to consider them anything of the sort.
     
  20. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    Mar 28, 2018
    Yeah, I am one of those who does look at games like that (mostly.)

    You are probably right. Maybe I am giving these games more credit than they deserve, in assuming an artistic vision. Though I do think what they do is by design rather than incompetence (apart from the bugs, and even that can be said in 76 to cut down on workload and have the community solve it's problems.)

    I'm sorry you feel that way about this topic. I suppose I should state that I'm not trying to defend the games in any way, and nor have I given any money to Bethesda for them (have not played 76, and bought 4 second hand, which got me into the series when I didn't know any better, and I'm treating that game worse, can't stand it anymore.)

    I suppose what I have to say is that people defend both games, and many defend both for the fun-ness of that kill-loot return loop. I was simply wondering why, and whether Fallout 76 is a better game for those people. (and no, I don't find it fun at all, its boring as hell to me.)

    Agreed. In retrospect, perhaps the title could have been phrased better? Perhaps the 'gameplay loop' should have been emphasised more.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1