The Neo-Liberals ...

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Feb 25, 2017.

  1. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    @Crni Vuk

    https://taxfoundation.org/details-and-analysis-senator-bernie-sanders-s-tax-plan/

    This is NOT about how the rich can pay for more taxes as they most likely can by finding even more ways to pass the cost to the average consumer. This IS about how these taxes will be an extra burden for the middle class and the poor.

    Population makes a HUGE difference as the cost of universal care and the like increase per person. This leads to serious discussion about immigration, both legal and illegal. We have to talk about how an open border policy, that most leftists support, which would absolutely cause havoc. If we are to follow YOUR OWN WORDS/leftist rhetoric, Joe Plebe already is poor and cannot really afford to pay more taxes as it is. Then we have to talk things like reforming education. We have to talk about things like abolishing degree requirements for most 'on the job training', fields. We need to realize that the U.S. has many more things to pay for than what the euro socialist countries have to pay for.

    It IS a very complicated situation, and no, 'euro or Canadian, or whatever socialism, is not going to fix this.

    I think there is an across the board, initial, increase of 2.2 percent. I say INITIAL because things are never as rosy as politicians claim, with the ACA as a prime example. It will also create a new, employer side payroll tax of 6.2 percent on employees, which the average Joe may or may not have to bear a part of as well. The increases to corporations would most likely be transferred to the consumer in the form of increased prices or loss of jobs . Keep in mind, we still have no idea what kind of ancillary effect this might have on state and local taxes as well.

    Overall, there are serious implications for EVERYONE, from the average Joe to Bill Gates. More problems will probably manifest themselves down the line as government gets even bigger and more inefficient, again, like the ACA. Bernie SAYS the increase tax burden on the rich will help pay for his programs but that is if he manages to close tax loopholes, in an even bigger and more bloated government bureaucracy. If he doesn't, most of his plans would most likely backfire on the middle class or poor, if they do not end up getting gutted all together.

    And TBH, BLM is the only real protest where there were riots happening and IN YOUR OWN WORDS, they were isolated acts and most likely, attributed to individuals with less of a focus on BLM rhetoric and more interested in causing general mayhem. The fact that people have yet to feel the need to cause absolute anarchy over the current situation leads me to believe all these calls for 'REVOLUTION', will continue to fall on deaf ears. Life is simply too good ATM, for Joe to choose anarchy over the current situation.

    As for your thoughts on Joe Plebe being bullshit, hey, believe what you want. I mean, this kind of arrogance and pretentiousness was what caused Trump to be elected in the first place. If the left/dems want to continue to lose, please, by all means, continue to ignore the average Joe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  2. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dark side in da houssah

    Nov 22, 2009
    Riots in US have been going on throughout Obama's reign. With Trump turning a blind eye on police brutality and the social unrest growing, there could easily be a lot more and bigger riots in the next few years. Getting to be very unlikely that Trumpy won't be impeached.
     
  3. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    TBH, never say never.

    However, the failure of groups like BLM and the democrats from not only defeating Trump, but losing majorities in both the House and the Senate, say otherwise. The kind of massive insurrection/revolution Crni speaks of that would force people, from the average joe to the rich, to accept socialism, over the possibilities of property damage and personal harm, is highly unlikely to happen IMO. Again, I would give this one to Crni when he says that the rioting and looting is primarily due to opportunistic elements using a specific movement for their own ends rather than the movement itself. If it IS the fault of a specific movement that is responsible for these riots, then I can only pity them as this kind of behavior only alienates, not gathers support, for their cause.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    That would assume that rioters would be a kind of 'movement' in the first place, if that is what you're saying. But I could get you wrong here.

    Riots for them self are neither new nor are really super rare thing, to say that they also happen in Germany for example.

    Student riots of 1968.

    Neo-Nazis attacking/rioting against immigrants 1992.

    Punks causing riots in Hannover 1995.


    *Edit
    With saying this however, I am not one of those people that thinks the riots in the US are some kind of huge expression of a 'race war' or something like that. We are not in the 1950s anymore, and the majority of the US is NOT(!) racist - discrimination is still very common though, but that's a different story.
    However, I do think that many of the riots we saw, like in Ferguson have directly something to do with inequality, in both money and representatives. When you look at the numbers, you have a population that is 65% black with a 95% white police force. It really doesn't take some high degree in science to see that this, leads to major issues. I doubt that the police is 'racist', but it really is a human thing that we start to think about 'us' vs 'them' if we do not find any kind of common ground, and the police in the US has already a very difficult stance to begin with.

    I would be really interested to see how the situation would change (hypotehtically) if the police force in Ferguson for example, actually reflected the population. Like if you had more black politicans, police officers and all that. I mean it is easy to say 'White people did it! Let's bash them all', but if you actually have black representatives, and it is still not improving, well than you can get really to the bottom of the issue.

    And that's the fact that the US is an oligarchy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  5. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    There is no law that stops blacks from becoming cops or politicians. Being a cop, in most places, merely requires a high school diploma. Politics is a different thing altogether but again, there is no law that says blacks cannot go into politics.

    In a place where 65 percent of the population is black, there should be a lot more black cops. But guess what, being a cop is a shitty often times, thankless work. It is very political in its own way as well. Sometimes, people just do not want to be cops. Being a black cop in many areas instantly earns said black person, a reputation as an 'Uncle Tom'. This is a major reason why blacks do not have the desire to enter into the law enforcement profession.

    Money has always been around in politics, EVERYWHERE. there are two options, either work WITH the system or tear it down. Now, in the U.S. tearing it down is possible, but IMO, highly improbable. So what is the alternative? Work with the system, COMPROMISE. A Trump presidency shows how futile NOT compromising, can be.
     
  6. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne Misanthropic God of Fuck Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    They might feel they will be ostracized by large portions of their community that feel they have been persecuted for years by law enforcement...
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I doubt that it's that easy though. You know that I didn't say the US was 'The new apartheid'. But discrimination, is a reality in pretty much every society. And on top of it, we're also dealing with economical and educational issues here.

    Also, I don't want to imagine what it must be like for a black poor guy who enters the police force to be surounded by 95% white guys, that is DEFINETLY(!) something that a white poor guy entering the police force, doesn't have to deal with.

    I am not saying that it's systemic, but it does make you kinda think.

    Look, when you have a school where 70% of the students are literla assholes, where they don't learn, where they behave like monkey etc. you can do two things, actually three, you can either do the easy stuff, say it's the students fault or the teachers fault or you can look at the system and what's wrong there - and no one's doing that, it always comes down to the people, the 'black' people just don't want it, they have the choice! Or, the cops are all just racist biggots and don't let black people in etc.

    Yes, but the dimension today is kinda staggering. The inequeality in the US today, is proportinaly worse compared to medieval times, think about that! Yes, the 'average' guy has a much better live today, but the wealth disparity between a peasant and the nobility was smaller compared to the average guy an the super rich. I mean look at Trumps cabinet, and if you don't see the difference to previous ones, than I don't know what to say. I mean for fucks sake ... Mike Pence as shit as he is, is pretty much the only serious 'politican' up there ...

    What I believe, is that we're just experiencing the tip of the ice berg right now and it will become gradualy even worse over time.
     
  8. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    So who is doing the ostracizing now? Didn't I hear somewhere, 'Two wrongs do not make a right'. One the one hand, we need more blacks to enter law enforcement. If they do get in, they get shit from their own communities for trying to make a difference? It is like housing. People move away, RACISM. People move in, RACISM/GENTRIFICATION.

    Now I don't know how hard the pre-qualification exams are or how tough the police academy is, but it really is that easy to APPLY. I mean, you can get turned down for academic reasons or psychological reasons and I won't rule out some discrimination. But to assume that it is merely based on race is counter-productive.

    And MLK and his people got beat up, attacked by dogs, sprayed by fire hoses,, lynched, etc. So a bunch of white people are around, so fucking what? Is it some kind of reverse racism thing? If the cops don't see him as just a 'black man', then the black man shouldn't see the others as just 'white people'.

    You say it is not systemic and yet further down, that is EXACTLY what you are saying. So what exactly do you see that is wrong with the system besides the education reform that I have already addressed.

    That is a catchy buzzword but let us not try to use buzzwords and elaborate. I mean, what do the left want? Do they want an increase of the standard of living for the average Joe, paid for by taxes on the rich? Do they mean UBI? Do they mean government subsidy of food for the poor? To address homelessness?
     
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Like I said, if it was just that easy ... see Germany is really really relly liberal when it comes to immigrants. But even I had my fare share of how do I call it ... experiences. The luck I have is that you won't notice that I am the child of immigrants due to the fact taht I look like every average German and that I have no accet, so I had situations where people talked a bit openly about what they 'think', and while I havn't meet some racist, I sure have meet some people that had a low opinion of muslims, black peole and the like. And when I asked them about it, they got their views not from experience. There is also a survey in Germany they did for job applications and if you had a turkish name or looked like a 'muslim', to say it that way, you had like 2 in some cases 3 times less of a chance to actually get the job, which means you had to write like twice as much applications compared to someone with a German name, it was even worse for females and it was partiuclarly dire for females which decided to wear a hijab on their images. And that wasn't some random survey, it was done by the government.

    What I mean with 'It's not systemic' is that you won't find some kind of shadow-figure behind it that makes laws and regulations to keep black people or some minority out of it, but I feel that it is simply an intrinsic system. I am not so good with words here, so this could be a missunderstanding, see something can be still a form of 'discrimination' even though it isn't done on purpose, but simply because we as humans prefer to hire and work with people, that are similar to us, be it from behaviour or looks. There are probably anyway a multitude of reasons at work here.

    To give you an example. The German government made a law which requires from the DAX companies (It's kinda the German Dow Jones) to have at least 30% females in their leadership, the rest of the large companies which are not inside the DAX have been just asked 'nicely' to follow that example, but on a voluntary basis. A couple of years from there, we can now see that the DAX companies, have exactly 30% females in their leaderships and how many females in the role of leadership have the other companies? 0 %. Is that now because of Sexism? I doubt it. At least a survey made on the subject says it isn't so much because of sexism, but simply becuse of what people prefer to see in applicants and they often look for qualities which they see in themselfs. The result was that you need well, females to hire females ... but if there are no females to begin with ... they won't be hired. Chicken and egg issue ...

    Now, I am not saying this is EXACTLY(!) the kind of issue you see with the police in Ferguson, but it highlights how complex the issue most probably is.
     
  10. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    The issue of black cops in America is one which has been around for a long-long time. It should be noted, though, that they've been a part of black culture themselves for almost as long as they've been allowed to exist. Black cop traditions and organizations exist in parallel to the accusations of being allied to the white establishment. One shouldn't underestimate the great strides, power, and traditions which do exist in the African American section of the US legal system. Built basically from the ground up.

    It's also important to also note part of the issue with police brutality in America is it's not just an issue of "whites vs. blacks" but also an issue of "rich vs. poor" as well as certain areas having the racist angle as much more prominent than others. Ferguson was such a major issue because it was an almost entirely white police force over an almost entirely black one. There are also certain conservative black groups among police who also think they are required to be extra harsh against black criminal organizations as a way of compensating for its influence.

    All of which is distilling very complicated history into two paragraphs. I will say, though, I do love Spike Lee's take on black america via Furious Styles.



    Ironically, by 2008, it would be poor whites being kicked out of their homes for the rich as well.
     
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  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Hence why I said the US is an oligarchy today.

    It finally improved! It's not about your 'colour' or 'heritage' anymore, but ... about how much MONEY you have/earn :D! Yeah ... of course I am exagerating a little, but you can't denny that the US is well one of those nations where money really opens you a hell lot of doors.
     
  12. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    *nerd digression*

    One of the few elements which anyone seemed to have put any thought into in Assassins Creed: Unity was the fact the transition from aristocracy to oligarchy was one of the major elements for the liberation of the underclasses as there was now actually some possible movement. The irony is, for whatever reason, they decided to make this a Templar ideal.

    Actually, not just a Templar ideal but an ideal of the Sage who is as close to the Antichrist as exists in the setting.

    Of course, the United States has always been an oligarchy rather than a democracy as limited franchise is where it began rather than degenerated from. It's now more open to voting among the populace than it's ever been before with the super-rich forced to operate to some of the masses needs.

    The real question is how to make that more to account.
     
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  13. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    @Crni Vuk

    1. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't rule out discrimination/natural bias, it happens. The difficulty is how to determine when racism/discrimination is a factor and when it is not. The problem, as I see it so far, is that racism/discrimination is often the go to explanation for any kind of situation, where there is a disparity of the races.

    2. The issue here is that, let us take Affirmitive Action as an example, in order to enforce racial quota policies, another will inevitably be discriminated against. It is the basic law of limits. There are limits to the amount of students a school can take or a job position, or whatever. When a quota is imposed, space reserved for specific races or sexes , etc,, has the very real possibility of creating a separate system of discrimination. In Arizona, we had prop 107, in a place even as liberal as California, we had prop 209. People realize that any form of preferential treatment would inevitably lead to a form of discrimination. People do not want ANY specific group to be favored. I don't know, maybe it is your much smaller population? Maybe it is just the culture? Either way, Europe is much more accepting of government oversight and open borders as a whole. In America, things are a bit different.

    @CT Phipps

    I would have to agree with you in regards to the issue of classism. If anything, racism has mostly gone the way of the dodo, replaced by classism. The thing is, classism is generally accepted on a personal level but not on a public level. We, as humans, naturally tend to judge others, and what better way than to not attack someone for something they CANNOT be responsible for, like race, with something they CAN be responsible for, like social status. I think if the left were to focus more on this issue and less on RACISM, they would fare a whole lot better. Unfortunately, class/social status/poverty is a much more complex animal to tackle then the more simple issue of racism. Which leads me to the next paragraph.

    I, being the pessimistic/occasionally optimistic fucker that I am, prefer to believe in a simple mantra, if you cannot beat them, JOIN them. You want to make a difference, move up socially to donate to others. Work towards being in government. You see this in rappers, sports athletes, musicians, moguls, etc. Social standing is a very interesting beast as it also ties into your Assassins Creed topic as well. You see, barring the very highest echelons of power, social status/mobility made incredible strides, in what you would call, an 'oligarchy'. Slavery? Gone. Caste system, gone. The only color that matters is GREEN. Joe Plebe, now has the power to 'move up'. IMO however, we differ in the how that movement is done.

    The left, prefers a care bear way of government over reach. The right, prefer a system of Ayn Rand proportions. They key here is the middle ground. This ties into over all EDUCATION reform, something that NONE, absolutely NONE, of the candidates addressed. Removing degree limits for certain jobs, government subsidies for fields like STEM, balancing a free market approach to some subjects with trusting a smaller government to handle the others. This, IMO, is one of the best solutions to tackle inequality in our time, until the era of robots which will most likely bring about the earliest forms of UBI.

    Second, in the case of 'gentrification', someone has to be willing to sell the home in the first place. Someone or something, has to bring property values down.

    Third, rather than buying into some giant conspiracy theory, the old man in the clip makes it all too clear. It isn't an 'outside' force, driving property values down, its the criminal elements in the community, something even Furious had to acknowledge. Lastly, people do not move because of RACISM, but to increase their social standing. They want a bigger/nicer house, car, property, etc. They may want lower rent payments, relocate to a better location in regards to proximity to friends and family. They may want to move because of their state and local politics. The non-racist explanations are numerous.

    Now onto the conspiracy theory. Cocaine affected primarily the elites, mostly white. Marijuana, everyone uses it, regardless of race. The hippies even made it famous as a key ingredient to peace and love. Crack, there are plenty of poor whites or other races also addicted. This has been a problem of human frailty, not some over-arching plan of domination. The liquor stores and abortion centers, of which some extremist black elements allude to a 'genocide', being perpetrated, is not a race issue and has never been one, it is a CLASS issue. The one good thing that Laurence Fishburne brought up, is the necessity of blacks to take back control of their communities from the riff raff. Focus more on the issue of education, if not by the school system, then at home.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  14. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Eh, @DarkCorp,

    There's a problem with the theory of classicism having replacing racism. The issue is that a lot of classicism boils down to, "people believe blacks are going to be innately more poor and hostile by the color of their skin rather." It's a similar attitude played toward immigrants of various stripes as well.

    People expect poor-looking black to be hostile or dangerous and they react in a manner not justified by the situation. In other words, plenty of police are told to expect black communities will be be hostile or dangerous or that individual blacks are more likely to be hostile or dangerous so they use more force--which makes them expect such hostility or believe the police are the enemy.

    The larger issue of racism is also one of generational problems rather than racism as an active force. Racism of the classic sort, of the kind used to justify slavery and then Jim Crow and the full-scale oppression of blacks by whites until the latter half of the 20th century also caused massive poverty as well as urban segregation.

    Blacks deal with that generational poverty and while individuals have managed to rise above it, the portion of American blacks who have risen above it is lower than it might be. This isn't to say whites don't have a similarly large number of poor to deal with it if not greater in number but that proportionally, it seems they have higher success.

    Or, as Chris Rock says, "Black people don't have a problem with rich. There's plenty of rich black folk. Black people have a problem with wealth. Michael Jordan is rich. The guy who signs Michael's checks is wealthy. Oprah is the wealthiest black person in America and she's a drop in the bucket compared to the wealth of white folks in general." Which is a good point that wealth is a tool for interests to use to shape policy for ethnic groups as a whole.

    I'm of the mind that poverty relief in America must be a colorblind issue but it has made the racial tensions in America much much worse. Also, that institutional attempts to keep the black man down (which isn't an exaggeration--it literally was the goal of many white institutions until the Civil Rights movement made them unpopular) have long lasting legacies we're still dealing with that can't simply be dismissed as saying, "oh, we're past that now."

    Re: Blacks and Crime

    The issue of money is the root of this particular as drug dealing is an effective means for individuals to be able to make a large amount of cash in situations where there is not available employment. As an Appalachian, the situation which torments the inner cities, torments rural White Americans with almost the exact same conditions. Many of the groups these criminals belong to are divided on racial lines with ethnic ideology used to unite them. The allure of easy crash, illegality, and violence creates a vicious cycle that has caused what is currently called the opiate pandemic in my area.

    There's also a rather eye-rolling element to the current pot legalization controversy because a large reason marajuana was criminalized was due to the fact its use and sale was linked to blacks and racist forces wanted to keep it out of their hands. The fact everyone uses it was immaterial to the criminalization's ultimately racist roots.

    In short, the War on Drugs has exaggerated and expanded the racial tensions in the United States.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
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  15. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
  16. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    That is a rather broad generalization of police departments as each one is different. Then, you have to account for different states, cities, countie, etc. But I cannot rule out that such situations happen.

    So what is it exactly are you trying to imply? This is very important as it sounds like you are admitting blacks can get out of this poverty, but at the same time, they cannot get out of this poverty. If so, then we need to examine the many different factors that would cause a person to become, successful. Like I have discussed, it ISN'T always racism at play here.

    So who is going to be blamed for the injustices of the past? Who must be forced to atone for past sins?

    But I am sure you would agree that poverty or unemployment is not a justification of crime. You also have to ask, how much money is enough to DETER, an individual from entering into a life of crime? You have to ask, what OTHER factors, can cause in individual to enter a life of crime? You said it yourself, criminality is a human flaw, not one attributed to a specific race. So essentially, how can one argue that crime is because of racism?

    Again, that sounds like a problem that ALL humans, regardless of race, can be affected by. In your own words, white communities are affected by these issues just as much as black communities are. If so, again, how does racism enter into the equation?

    Huh? I got the message that the outlawing of marijuana had a variety of reasons, ranging from deporting Mexicans to business magnates like William Hearst and DuPont not wanting hemp to be in competition with new synthetic fibers or paper.

    While I am for the decriminalization of Cannabis, I think to make the hard drugs legal is absolutely insane.
     
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    America, the special snowflake again ... I am just saying, quotes in certain areas might be simply needed. Like I said, when you have a situation where 50% of the population is not represented in positions of power, than you have a problem - see females and companies.
     
  18. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    @Crni Vuk

    So more government control, got ya.
     
  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well, in certain areas it makes sense, that's why you have a government to make sure that it represents the 'people'. At least in position of power. If half of your population is female, but like 90% of the leading positions are held by males, than it is in my opinion a problem. Luckily a lot has improved here.
     
  20. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne Misanthropic God of Fuck Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    Was this where we discussed basic income? Here is a smart guy's opinion on it.



     
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