Well established characters ruined by new material

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Risewild, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. Ben Soto

    Ben Soto Professional Salt Shaker

    Jul 7, 2014
    The difference is, Chris Pine can pull off womanizing jock because he can actually act. William Shatner hadn't ever quite mastered that little thing called "acting" and his performance suffered because of it.

    I honestly prefer New!Kirk to Old!Kirk. New!Kirk is entertaining. Old!Kirk is just painful to watch.

    As for me, I really don't like how they've handled Samus in the Metroid series. They've tried to give her a personality beyond "STOIC SPACE BOUNTY HUNTER IN SPAAAAACE!" but it comes off as just... wrong. Thankfully, they're on a course correction with Metroid: Samus Returns and hopefully Prime 4.
     
  2. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Strange, I had no problem understanding it when I read it the first time. I wonder if it is because of english not being my first language or something :confused:.

    [Wall of writing warning]

    I just came by to post something related to the Spiderman Homecoming ruining the character of Spiderman (this is a separate topic from the "it is a good/bad movie", this is about the Spiderman character compared to the "50 decades +" long well established one from the comics):

    This Spiderman is a total idiot. I know they are coming with the "he's a teenager, so he is stupid" kinda of thing. But in the comics he is as intelligent as some of the brightest characters in that universe. He worked with Reed Richards, Dr Connors, Bruce Banner, Dr Octavius, etc. His immaturity was shown as a lack of experience, not a total idiot.
    The thing about Spiderman in the comics is that he is a tragic character, he has super powers but his life is about him getting tragedy after tragedy (usually because he has those powers).
    He was forced to grow up quickly and lose his immaturity early on after he acquired his powers. He used his super powers to get money easily by competing in wrestling matches, winning and getting paid. Until one day he had finished his wrestling match and a thief came running past him while being chased by someone. That person asked Peter Parker to stop the thief, since it would be easy for him to do so, but Peter didn't do anything and the thief escaped, when asked why he didn't help catching the thief he only replied "It's not my job to do that.".
    Later that day the police arrived at Peter's house and informed him and his Aunt that his Uncle has been shot and died. Peter was shocked and angry at the guy who shot his Uncle, so he decides to pursue the criminal (which is stuck inside a warehouse surrounded by the police). Peter uses his powers to break in the warehouse and confront the criminal, once he sees the criminal, he recognizes him as the thief he let escape earlier by doing nothing to stop him. In a blind rage he beats up the criminal to the brink of death but then he recalls his (now iconic) Uncle's words "With great powers come great responsibility". Peter realizes that with his powers, he should have stopped the thief and if he had done that his uncle would still be alive.
    Peter Parker becomes a hero because of this great tragedy.
    Then we have all the other tragedies in Peter's life:
    • He has super powers but he is still bullied at school
    • He can't share his secret identity because then the people he loves would be targeted by criminals.
    • He has powers but can't really reap any recognition and glory from them.
    • His Aunt has money problems and struggles to pay the bills so to help:
    • He works for a newspaper selling photos of Spiderman, but the newspaper boss hates Spiderman and usually uses his photos to try and incriminate Spiderman and paint him in a bad way.
    • His best friend's dad becomes a psychotic super villain and makes Spiderman the main target of his attacks.
    • His best friend's dad kills Peter Parker's first love in front of him (after finding out Spiderman's identity).
    • His best friend's dad kills himself in a trap designed to kill Spiderman, in front of Spiderman.
    • His best friend gets the same psychotic obsession and powers as his father and becomes the new villain obsessed with killing Spiderman
    • Spiderman mutates into a humanoid spider being and becomes out of control, causing destruction and chaos.
    • Spiderman gets an alien symbiotic life form that acts as his suit and increases his powers, but it is controlling him while he sleeps and it is trying to fuse permanently with Peter Parker.
    • By refusing the symbiotic life form and seperating it from himself in a very painful way, he creates a super villain that is also psychotic, has all the powers Spiderman has and more and is obsessed with destroying Spiderman's life.
    • Etc.
    Spiderman's character is all bout self sacrificing and personal tragedy. How his powers only bring him tragedy after tragedy, but he still keeps going because he can use those powers to help people (there were a few times Peter tried to stop being Spiderman so he would stop the tragedies from happening, but in the end he can't stay put, he always have to use his powers to save people).

    Peter also always made his own gadgets and his a lonely hero by nature (he doesn't want to bring others into his tragedy chain), he manages to marry a popular and attractive woman, but this only brings him more tragedy because his wife keeps getting dragged into life and death situations by villains that find out Spiderman's identity. IIRC Mary Jane (his wife) even dies and then gets cloned or something weird like that.
    Spiderman never got any sidekicks, and for sure wouldn't need a sidekick to hack stuff for him, since Peter is the "highly genius" in an average school.
    Spiderman doesn't fawn over any other super heroes at all, he feels insecure in some more major situations (like some cosmic proportions events) when he is working with the avengers and stuff like that, but he never fawns at them.

    Spiderman never had a highly technological suit with built in computers and a special web shooter devices or any other kind of gadget in his suit. Most of the movie is him dealing and using his "awesome" suit, while he himself is an idiot.

    And a big thing about this new Spiderman in the Homecoming movie... They got rid of one of the most unique powers Spiderman has... His spider sense... Spiderman's spider sense is pretty unique in the Marvel universe, while many characters have super strength, super agility and can climb vertical surfaces, I can't think of any other character that has the spider sense, not even Venom has the Spider sense and Venom has all the other powers Spiderman has.

    Why did they remove Spiderman's Spider sense in this movie? That is easy, because if he had Spider sense he wouldn't be seen by his sidekick (in the books Spiderman uses his spider sense to know if it is safe for him to dress and undress in public areas, to know if it is safe for him to show his powers without his suit in case someone can see him, etc), also they couldn't have all the parts where the Vulture attacks him by surprise (which are all the parts in the movie where the Vulture gets the upper hand against Spiderman, yes that is right it is ALL of them), his spider sense would warn him about the alien grenade/explosive thing.
    Because apparently it is too hard to write a good fight involving Spiderman if he can sense danger and can't be caught by surprise anymore. Actually, write anything... So let's just remove his most unique and iconic power so we can write a movie. :roll:

    So this Spiderman in the Homecoming movie is ruined because:
    He doesn't have any real personal tragedies happening, even his bullying in the movie is very tame compared to the one in the books. His girlfriend instead of getting killed, moves away (so sad :puppy-dog:). He behaves nothing like the book one does, he is really stupid in the movie, he relies on other super heroes for most of the movie, he relies on some fancy pants super high tech suit for most of the movie, he fawns over the other super heroes, he has a sidekick that is smarter than he is, He lost his most unique power just for the sake of cheap and easy "writing", his life is pretty much a paradise in all aspects compared with the book one. Etc.

    I could probably squeeze a few other examples, but this is already giant as it is. :whistle:
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  3. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    @Risewild the reason for my earlier confusion is because he was referencing a Godzilla movie that I had not even heard of (I'm a bit of a old school Godzilla fan). After a little research I figured it out.

    Goes to show you how nutty some of these IP's can get.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    As far as I can tell it would be simply easier to say which character wasn't ruined ...
     
  5. Valdetiosi

    Valdetiosi It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 14, 2017
    Frank West on Dead Rising 4.

    Frank West on DR1 was a guy who could sympathise with psychopaths and was looking to talk people down than fight them.

    Frank West on DR4 is a jerkass who constantly makes witty jokes that gets cringy very fast.
    Who killed him and replaced him with Hank East?
     
  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    They needed to capitalize on Saints Row and Sunset Overdrive. Gotta chase those trends!
     
  7. Ben Soto

    Ben Soto Professional Salt Shaker

    Jul 7, 2014
    I like Saints Row, but Saints Row only works because it's Saints Row. It's characters don't really work in any other setting.
     
  8. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    That's not the only thing that made it interesting, though. It may be a violent action movie but it's also a really well-crafted film. Here's an in-depth analysis on how perfectly symmetrical it is, which is bloody amazing and, I imagine, incredibly hard to pull off.

    I do enjoy classic Star Trek ins spite of Kirks hammy acting, it's fun. I'd even say it works sometimes. But I also like Pine's version. Newspock, too, for that matter. I don't think NuTrek ruined the characters at all.
     
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    It's impossible.

    I agree with Buxbaum.
     
  10. Ben Soto

    Ben Soto Professional Salt Shaker

    Jul 7, 2014
    New!Chekov, New!Kirk, New!Uhura, New!Bones and New!Sulu are definite improvements. I'm a bit torn on New!Scotty vs Old!Scotty, though I'm leaning a bit towards Simon Pegg's performance, and Old!Spock is clearly superior.
     
  11. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    Leonard Nimoy was an absolute treasure, of course. He will forever be Spock prime. I think Quinto did an excellent job, though. And I love that car commercial they did together.

     
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  12. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Vault Fossil

    Aug 21, 2004
    I posted about this in the Movie thread, but I'll... well, not really elaborate, because this is one of those situations where it really requires so few words to explain the ruination.

    Hercules Poirot, in the last iteration of "Murder in the Orient Express" and played by Kenneth Branagh. They make Poirot fight in this one... fight... Poirot... a fight secne. Seriosuly? Oh, and a chase/fight scene as well. So that's two fight scenes... Poirot... I mean... I.... ghahghhhaahh... no words.
     
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  13. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    If it's anywhere near as bland as rogue one I'd say I disagree.
     
  14. Whammytap

    Whammytap First time out of the vault

    Aug 5, 2016
    Poirot was always this sort of impish entity, using his powers of observation and deductive reasoning to not only solve murders, but pull the occasional prank and crack jokes. He's one of those magical men that, although portly, can be absolutely elfin. Branaugh is a VERY. SERIOUS. ACTOR. and he dosn't bring this quality to Poiroit.

    Can we do books? Movies rarely live up to the books they interpret, but I feel it's an absolute sin to have made a movie based around Stephen King's "Gunslinger" series. Movies of Stephen King books are often famously bad anyway, and reading the "Gunslinger" series was probably the closest thing to a religious experience I've had. I don't know of any fans of the books who will even acknowledge the movie.
     
  15. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    Kinda unrelated but I always hated how after the shit fest of pandering that was Wreck it Ralph some people actually thought Wreck it Ralph was a real videogame despite it clearly being a parody of Donkey Kong.
     
  16. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    There have been some great ones though. Shawshank, misery, stand by me....
    The new it wasn't bad either.
    My dad insists it wasn't that bad.
     
  17. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Dec 6, 2016
  18. Walpknut

    Walpknut Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    Dec 30, 2010
    So....gonna paint a target on my back for admitting to being a Harry Potter fan again but....

    So Grindelwald. He was always talked about as a Hitler like figure, with a huge following, concentration camps and shit. In the movies He is some doofus played by Johnny Depp who gets disposed of by a single person and then gets captured and for some reason decides to pretend to be some dude in the American Magic Government or whatever for reasons, the character was actually a better villain when he wasn't just Grindelwald in diguise.
    Then the second Fantastic Beasts movie is just called "Grindelwald's crimes" like, what the fuck is that name? Would someone make a WWII biopic called "Hitler's deeds?".
     
  19. mithrap

    mithrap Ring a ding-ding, baby

    May 17, 2016
    Oh yeah, Misery was excellent. The book too, quite impressive considering that 95% of the story takes place in a bed.
    When it comes to Stephen King's characters, Ron Perlman did a solid job as Collie Entragian in Désolation, but the movie itself was rather mediocre. The character played by Jack Nicholson in Shining though was HATED by Stephen King, since it was a great example of a character ruined by new material. In the Shining book, the father is actually the hero of the story, who overcomes his inner demons and kind of sacrifices himself to save his family (from himself and his booze, yep, but still). Stephen King hated how he suddenly became the bad guy with no chance of redemption.
     
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  20. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    No it would probably be renamed to "Hitler's misdeeds".