What does "War Never Changes" mean to you?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Scramjet, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. Scramjet

    Scramjet First time out of the vault

    Sep 14, 2013
    It may sound like a really idiotic question, but when you think about it there's actually a lot of ways to interpret it. I'm curious to see what most people here think about this, so go ahead and state your mind.
  2. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    It's main theme of Fallout series.
    for Fo1,2 I think it's motive would be Nazi's WW2.
    The war was happened because they didn't accept difference. what Nazi try to do was cleanse other race.
    and what Master and Enclave try to do is not changed since WW2. not only WW2 has same meaning there's tons of wars that happened because they don't accept differences.

    for NV, I think it has different meaning. unlike Fo1,2, it's meaning wasn't start from racism but greed.
    greed of money, honor, territory etc. the war never changed since ancient time:because of greed.

    and for fo3? war was always happened by alien so war never changed. what a dumb joke.
  3. Scramjet

    Scramjet First time out of the vault

    Sep 14, 2013
    Although that's no where near what I was expecting, that is a great answer!
  4. Languorous_Maiar

    Languorous_Maiar A Smooth-Skin

    Oct 25, 2011
    For me, answer is in intro of Fo1

    Imho, it isn't about objective, but about war itself. It was always about killing people/abusing them and always will be, so never changing story.
  5. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 2, 2013
    I agree the answer is in the intro(and history), resources was the underlying reason of nearly all war through out history. From early raids, conquest of territory, specific resources or strategic points/deals e.g. opening new trade routes.

    The way I see it "War. War never changes", reminds us that history tends to repeats itself. Coupled with FO2 into "the reasons, as always, purely human ones". I think its a perfect intro into what we should expect to explore in the game, because even though its new beginning/world for the human race, somethings never change. FO1 ending a good exampled of that.
  6. Scramjet

    Scramjet First time out of the vault

    Sep 14, 2013
    You (and the man before you) just summed it up perfectly. Thank you.
  7. FalloutTroll

    FalloutTroll Mfw no snow

    Apr 7, 2013
    It never changes, all the effects of it are the same
  8. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    It means to me that war is, basically, one of the primary urges in human nature. Be it a simple fight or a grand scale war, humans have the necessity for conflict (and subsequent) triumph deep inside them.
    It's in all of nature, basically. It's almost an instinct.

    Being dominant. Having the most. Being the best.
    You can see it everywhere. It's basically the foudation of evolutionary theory. The best species will thrive and survive, the weaker ones will die out. The alpha male will impregnate all the females. The highest tree in the forest will be more sunbathed, therefore more photosynthesis, therefore more food.
    It's a constant fight for survival and domination. It's a never-ending war.

    However, humans, in all their intellectual might, have cranked up the volume to the max, so war gets a bit more extreme - like genocide, holocaust, chemical, biological and nuclear warfare, entire destruction of planet and large portion of its biosphere...that kinda stuff.

    But in core, it's all the same. Domination. Wealth. Power.

    From all that comes war. War never changes.
  9. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Agreed. It looks to me like old prehistorical heritage, atavism of some sort, hardcoded in human genome. In a few words - if everything else fails, just grab some sharp rock, smash your neighbor's head, take his food and woman and you're fine. The beauty of human nature!
  10. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 2, 2013
    You mean hardcoded to violence? I think its a very black and white approach. Its about exploring human actions and motives, in FO1(and iirc FO3) we are not given an ultimate bad guy, who is hardcoded to wage war, but a scientist at heart, who got there through unfortunate circumstance, you can even convince him to change his way. You yourself, the hero of the day, that despite best intentions and doing what was requested/necessary has been exiled, not because you are hardcoded to violence...
  11. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010

    Well, "hardcoded" has more than one usage here.
    In one way, yes, it is hardcoded - as valcik pointed out, when all else fails, violence is a potential solution as any, but that doesn't mean people will immediately jump to the option of snapping each others' necks and so on. But it is an option, one we have rooted deep in ourselves.
    If I'm not wrong, hate and aggression are nurtured deep inside our brain (literally), in a "primordial" part. Our advanced parts of the brain, cortex etc. were slowly built upon it during the course of several millions of years, but it is still there, and it does know how to act up.

    However, since we've gone "sophisticated" enough to put that part of brain on standby most of the time and vent our aggression in a more rational manner, that doesn't mean our primary, natural urges (like I've said, dominance and power etc.) are gone. They are hidden under a layer of intellect, rational and abstract thinking, but they're still there, and they influence everything else about ourselves.

    Think about it.
    Coworkers competing at work for a promotion. Students for a better grade and teacher's approval. Young men competing for a girl and vice versa. Political strength and domination. Economic monopoly. War.
    All are based on a same principle, one simply principle from which all our ambition as human beings thrive. I probably sound a bit like Nietzsche right now, but I personally believe it is like that, and yet need to see the evidence to prove me otherwise.

    Back to the topic of war, in a "normal" circumstance, war is not the need for violence, but a need to achieve dominance and prosper through effective use of violence.
    In its own core, it has never changed. The methods of warfare, the "art of war" if you will has evolved over time, but its still the same basic concept.
    Ideologies behind each side of the conflict are important too, but when the push comes to shove, even they're basically the same - whose ideology and way of thinking will prove correct.

    In Fallout world, the two sides were competing in a game of who has more resources, more wealth, and therefore more power. No difference to any conflict in history before, and, as we've seen, after.
    The usage of nuclear weapons was a desperate move, most likely, but still falls in the same principle. I believe China probably started it after USA successfully retook Alaska under its wings (if my lore knowledge is correct - it certainly is rusted) - they could've been hoping US wouldn't have high capabilities for a second strike (I personally don't think this is the case, but eh, we still haven't seen how China looks in game), or they could alternatively been thinking "If we can't have it, so can't they."
    But this is pure speculation. The possibilities are many, but don't change the essential concept here - methods of war may, but war itself never changes.
  12. EnclaveForever

    EnclaveForever It Wandered In From the Wastes

    May 21, 2013
    The world would be pretty depressing without war, I could only imagine how far back in regards to technology we would be without it. I mostly see war as a form of "cleansing" and to me it sounds much more rational than reproduction, sexuality, ethics, morals and tolerance combined. War seems to be our only natural method of selection and therefore is essential for the survival of the human race.
  13. paladin_lord

    paladin_lord It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 12, 2011
    i guess the main idea is that conflict is inevitable. Humanity's inclination to solve anything through violence will always be present as a part of natural survival instinct, and will always be in conflict with our morality. the fallout world portrays a universe where Morality got nuked ... but the conflicts will always remains.

    that slogan also remind me that ... " there is always a new fallout game" :)
  14. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    You are right about the Vault Dweller or the Master, they're not driven purely by violence or instincts. Look at the Great War though, that's something completely different - people were killing each other just because their needed more food, resources or landscape for living. That's war older than humanity itself, it's a fight for energy which started with first living organisms. The most simple cells are fighting for millennia this way.
  15. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Well, in fact, both are the same in some way. The fight for energy needed to survive has the same connotation as the Vault Dweller's and The Master's conflict: "I deserve to live/I am better than others". Essentially, The Master is playing the advanced organism card, he feels more entitled to live, and the same goes for the Vault Dweller, although he does not explicitly say one is better than the other, he feels he deserves to live more than the mutants, and that's why he kills them when he feels his life is menaced by them. It is all a "me first" matter.
  16. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Please tell me you don't actually fucking believe that.

    But to stay on topic I would reply with a quote by J.S. Sawyer when he clarifies that sentence in the making of New Vegas. He says "It's this idea that mankind has this unending appetite for killing eachother." So I think that really it's more of a premise, a theme upon which interesting stories can be based rather than any one game or even the entire franchise trying to answer what it means specifically.
  17. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010

    From a certain more-or-less objective standpoint, he is right, to an extent.
    War is needed to fuel and facilitate the progress of human development. For example, good deal of technological advances were primary built for warfare purposes, but only later went into commercial, "civilian" usage.
    And yes, since humanity doesn't have any natural enemies anymore (viruses and microorganism excluded), war does remain one of the few methods in which selection works.

    But I do agree with you, the tone he sets in that post is...worrisome. Not to mention the whole "sounds more rational" sentence which is...well...

    Yet again, wasn't this the guy who tried to prove that genocide has actual logical basis? Or was he role-playing the whole Enclave thing?
  18. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Yes. And another good deal of technological advances were built for peaceful purposes. All of the advancements tend to arise to solve a problem. Winning wars is just one set of them.

    There are lots of other ways in which selection works. Poverty against richness, is at some extent a selection based on intellect or other abilities. Of course, inheritance pretty much ruins the deal.

    I think the guy was role playing.
  19. EnclaveForever

    EnclaveForever It Wandered In From the Wastes

    May 21, 2013
    Guess again. War is natural, it is a fundamental behaviour among humans and is completely expected. Countless times have so-called "utopias" been proven to be unstable and deceptive. In fact, many countries and its people worship war and thank it at least one day a year, thanking it for giving its people freedom, respect, dignity and honour. All you would not have with just peace.
  20. paladin_lord

    paladin_lord It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 12, 2011
    I can agree if we consider War one facet of men's instincts brought to a collective pattern. However I don't agree that any war is meaningful ... Among all reasons to wage war they rarely represent freedom, respect or dignity. In some occasions the attacked nation is the one fighting for those values in others they are not even present.