What if Super Mutants weren't sterile?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by hag, Aug 18, 2018.

  1. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    Anything in the genus homo is human. That includes many extinct species including neanderthals. As far as I understand it, there is no outgrowing a taxon. So they would be human, but not homo sapiens sapiens as they're different enough to be their own species. Not sure how they would be classed beyond that though, what with the FEV junking things up. I mean, I think species are supposed to be able to breed...so I guess it's kinda messy, but from the context of genocide a humanity would be wiped out.

    Transformed is one way of putting it, but that wouldn't change the fact that he's going to erase their kinds, creeds, and cultures, etc. So that they 'survive' in some sense doesn't mean that the Master isn't wiping out an entire people.

    Memory and personality retention wouldn't change this, but that loss means that it's not even clear whether anyone is really surviving. That's a philosophical rabbit hole for sure, possibly via Theseus' ship. Which admittedly didn't incorporate mutation (of design/body plan).

    To me it only adds to his character, by offering an explanation for what was otherwise a set of unconnected dots. And flaws are fascinating. They create personal struggles, which are a form of conflict, that is itself the driver of narrative. Flaws are also relatable. If anything, I see it as helping him make sense as a character. Whereas, either way, his plan doesn't make much sense. Which itself still comes down to merit, because mental illness (if applicable) would not mean we can simply disregard the view or plan.
     
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  2. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 9, 2017
    I absolutely agree with everything the master says. Peace can only be had if every human is one race, one goal, one government. However, the process of this leads to the Great War. Nuclear War is not about resources, using nuclear weapons on population centers is an act of genocide, and in the end, the Chinese leadership found the very existence of the Americans intolerable (because they had lost).

    I don't see the Master as any different. I think he like Chairman Cheng and Adolf Hitler, would destroy the world rather than allow his vision to be compromised. In this way, he is not better than the Enclave.
    Let's get beyond the instant no-sells of semi-hive mind via psychic indoctrination and the loss of memory. Becoming a supermutant DEFORMING, especially with me as a female.

    So no. Not my color. If the FEV caused supermutant women to come out looking like so:
    https://pre00.deviantart.net/2404/th/pre/i/2014/042/a/f/amazon_by_elee0228-d758vs3.jpg
    (and well that isn't the only hair color, there are others)

    Then the first generation being mentally retarded by and large, it would still be worth it in the end. Except for that whole psychic intrustion, and that is just plain unacceptable. So Maybe you could get me to take the plunge If I came out Amazonian AND fertile AND after the Master himself is dead and my head is still my santuary.

    The very problem is that Master'sPlan CANNOT work in a world where humans have evolved with Darwinian pressures. Because humans are animals, this means social Darwinism of the Hitler type (divorced from any notion of racial supremacy) is abjectly correct. We are apex predators, we prey on each other, and genociding our neighbors so they can't even think of preying on us because they're all dead, is what humans are SUPPOSED TO DO. This deep-seated and justified and correct xenophobia means with advents in transportation since the 1500s we have two outcomes: we spread out in space and establish colonies so far from each other they have no contact with each other, and therefore cannot feel threatened or we nuke society back to the point where large-scale migration and invasion are impossible.

    I want FEV for the only thing it can realistically do: Krogan up the speices and improve the life of the individual. The fact that war never changes is not a design flaw, it is humans WORKING AS DESIGNED.
     
  3. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    I don't think we played the same game...
     
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  4. hag

    hag The Master Did Nothing Wrong!

    Aug 21, 2016
    He doesn't do that, though.

    "I... don't think that I can continue. Continue? To have done the things I have done in the name of progress and healing. It was madness. I can see that now. Madness. Madness? There is no hope. Leave now, leave while you still have hope..."
     
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  5. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 9, 2017
    You're not getting what I'm talking about. Yeah, he commits suicide because the plan mechanically can't work. What I'm saying, hypothetically, if it could work and the mutants weren't sterile and it was 80 years later and the Enclave come in and defeat him, then he'd let the nukes fly and burn down everything, even inviting in MAD because the vision is more important than the people. That's why you can't talk him down on moral grounds: the vision is more important than the people and most importantly, the vision is more important than outsiders who are not involved in the conflict.

    This issue is that the Master, in my estimation, is not willing to accept defeat and submission, and by extension slavery and extermination to preserve human society. The very problem with humanity in a world where MAD has failed is that humans have proven they would rather render humanity extinct than face their own end. Humanity as a whole matter less than the tribe and power of the tribe. And the Mutants are as guilty of this as any human. And that means the Master's Plan doesn't even try to solve the basic problem

    But let's consider the most distasteful scenario and what it means to really ensure the survival of human society. The Arabs and the Israelis are at war, and the Arabs are winning and they as in the Six Day War are openly genocidal in intent towards the Israelis. To preserve society in the Middle East, the Jews of Israel must fully submit to being raped and murdered out of existence by their enemies in order that human civilization and human life continue in the Middle East. If they don't, they initate the Sampson Option and nuke the region uninhabitable.

    The very flaw of humanity that makes MAD ineffective is that we do not believe that might makes right when it comes to our enemies, nor do we care enough about humanity as a whole to suffer total defeat (and defeat is always and only on the victor's terms). But then again, in that light, it doesn't seem like a flaw. It seems like a survival instinct.

    But it illustrates the important point: the problem isn't that humans are warlike, the problem isn't that humans will gladly burn down the world to avenge their power, their populations, their ego. The problem is WMDs allow the defeated to destroy the world, it gives them the option no living organism would turn down. The only solution to MAD is House's solution: you shoot down the missiles or civilization dies
     
  6. a721402

    a721402 Played FPS for decades still suck at it.

    Mar 29, 2016
    I have the feeling someone mistake his head canon for actual canon now.
     
  7. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    Did someone just try to argue that genocide is the purpose of humanity or something?
    wtf read.jpg
     
  8. SiriusShenanigans

    SiriusShenanigans First time out of the vault

    Jun 27, 2018
    You can argue that war is human nature as it is humanity's way of reconciling with law to better acclimate to justice. Its why in hobbes, humans fear the state of nature, yet return to it when needs aren't being met.
     
  9. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 9, 2017
    I'm arguing a bit more than that. I think human beings, if only dark tetrad personalities are opportunistic predators and fundamentally need others to fear and exploit and look down on and spit upon. I think humans have noble instincts too, but fundamentally evil people are gonna fuck it up for everyone.

    Unity (or The Unity in the Master's case) doesn't solve the basic problem that humans are bastards. Now peace COULD be maintained as long as the Master is alive but frankly, that goes for most despots. Hell even Nero, who was.....a lackluster ruler, kept Rome from Civil Discord as long he kept breathing.

    FEV is a means of bettering the species, but you can't make people morally better with genetic engineering. You can only make humanity better in the sense that you "Korgan up" the species. And if you can Korgan up the species without deforming it, why the hell not?
     
  10. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    We're prosocial, gregarious, omnivores actually. Our capacity for empathy and collectivism is the only reason we created civilization. Also, the major trend of human history has been the improvement of living standards, quality of life, etc.
     
  11. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 9, 2017
    Prosocial to KIN and ONLY to kin. Slavery is immensely profitable, even when you pay them 20 cents an hour and install suicide nets to keep the production units alive. Humans are bastards, mostly because we don't owe any moral obligations to outsiders, successful civilization look like the Romans, the Spaniards, the Mongols and yes, the Nazis. We live in that happy universe where Hitler was a spaz and Gobechev allowed perestroika. Neither the Chinese nor the North Koreans will ever make that mistake.

    And that's not even getting to the point that not every leader is a rational actor. If Hitler had second strike nuclear capacity the entire civilized world would have gone up in flames in April 1945. And what happens when we inevitably fight the next Hitler, the next Pol Pot, the next Mao who's some toxic combination of utterly sociopathic and meglomanical? We either submit, or we win and right as we close in on the sumbitch in his bunker, the nukes go flying, just to take us with him.

    As evil as the Enclave is (and it's hideously evil) it didn't matter if they had been boy scouts and faith healing saints. Chairman Cheng gambled, fought and lost then nuked the world to spite the Americans, to salve his own ego. A rational leader would have surrendered with Bejing under siege and the Yangtze occupied and the world would have continued.

    Even if you don't think humans, in general, are utterly amoral self-serving bastards, you can't deny the power of truly pathological personalities to fuck up everything for everyone. Without Stalin and Hitler, World War II is unthinkable. Even taking out Hitler or having Mussolini leading Germany and Hitler Italy makes war highly unlikely. WWI was a structural problem, security logic gone amuck. WW2 was because some of the evilest men in history wanted the whole pie.

    The thing that keeps this from happening again? The US Navy. Not the UN, not any fear of MAD (which will not stop the pathological), not mutual economic integration (which didn't stop WWI). American hyperpower forces everyone to bend the knee or be strangled by naval blockade and pulverized by the first and second most powerful air forces on the planet. The international stage has no benevolent influences, only naked self interest. Luckily no one believes in anything except putting money in their pockets, but that won't last.
     
  12. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    Did Beth made ae Chinese dictator responsible for the bombs ?
    That cheapens the point made by the classics.
    They made pretty clear about the fact nobody knows who launched first, and that it doesn't matter. Everyone would have at that point. And the fallout US government was one of the worst. And as we see in fo2, that government never learned. I guess you wouldn't except a company ruled by trump's brother to maintain an semi-harsh view against an alternate world us government.



     
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  13. Big No

    Big No Watch as I open and close this door

    Oct 28, 2014
    I think everyone pretty much assumes China launched first since it would make more sense than the US launching first. Unless some sneaky third party decided to do it.
     
  14. naossano

    naossano Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 19, 2006
    We are talking about the Enclave. The guys who would later send poisonous gas to their own citizens because their genes mutated a bit, not mentioning countless of sick experiments for many years.

    Fallout Pre-war America was a pretty awful country to live in.
     
  15. Sublime

    Sublime First time out of the vault

    Jun 5, 2018
    What's the point though? They had won the War for Alaska, and while Pre war US was a mess it was still better than nuclear nothingness
     
  16. a721402

    a721402 Played FPS for decades still suck at it.

    Mar 29, 2016
    It could be a false nuke alert make them thought China decide to go total nuts so them launch the first nuke, we have something similar happened before, during the cold war.
     
  17. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    It could have been any other nuclear super power.
    Maybe other super powers were waiting for the USA and China to weaken each other and then be trampled by them. Since the USA was winning easily, it spoiled the plans of that third super power and they just nuked them.

    Also we don't know if the rest of the world was nuked or not. There is no game that mentions where the nukes fell outside of the USA.

    So for all we know only the USA and maybe China got nuked. The rest of the world might have been "fine" compared to these two countries. I say fine, but the rest of the world was embroiled in wars and lack of resources too, but they might have escaped direct nuclear apocalypse. Although the effects of the nukes would become global (nuclear winters, fallout, radioactivity spreading due to wind, etc).

    But we only know for sure that the USA was nuked, and that the USA fired nukes too, but we don't even know if they were fired at China or not.

    And then there is Mothership Zeta :puke:. Which shows the Zetans were interested in getting the USA nuclear launch codes... :twitch:

    EDIT: I just thought of something. It is very plausible that the Enclave might have been the first to shoot nukes. Before the bombs fell, the objective of the Enclave was to leave Earth into space. And they made the Vaults be experiments to see how people cope in different stressful situations that would be expected to happen in deep space traveling. But those experiments wouldn't happen if there wasn't a real nuclear attack on America. Because the vaults would only get people during the attack.
    So if there wasn't a nuclear attack, the Enclave couldn't get their test subjects and couldn't go to space. And there would be no point in them wasting resources and money into making the Vaults being experiments in the first place...
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018 at 1:42 PM
  18. Sublime

    Sublime First time out of the vault

    Jun 5, 2018
    Maybe I was a bit hasty to say that it must have been China, however there aren't other superpowers competing with the USA: they were even in good terms with the Soviet Union. It's possible that it was a European nation, but they were already in a civil war during the events of the American-Sino war.

    I also wish to clarify that I had in mind mainly to the space plan when talking about the Enclave. If you want to colonize space effectively it's much easier if you have a big economy and a vast industrial complex than a devastated Wasteland.
     
  19. SiriusShenanigans

    SiriusShenanigans First time out of the vault

    Jun 27, 2018
    Fallout 2 hinted that it was dejected AI that were locked into doing miserable tasks and unable to see the world that fired the nukes. I always like the idea that it might have been them.
     
  20. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    The Enclave already had all of that, what they needed now was results to their experiments, and for that they needed test subjects, and that was why they invested so much money and resources into making the vaults so they could experiment on people. But if no one uses the vaults, they will not get any results for the experiment.
    I think the Enclave even had their spaceship already built and everything, all they needed was the vault experiment results. So they did not need a big economy or a vast industrial complex anymore.
    They wanted to leave Earth to never return, because Earth was bankrupt in relation to resources.

    This is from the design documents for Van Buren:
    Notice how the Enclave knew nuclear war was just around the corner one year before the bombs fell. Now, it is very suspicious that the Enclave knew bombs would soon fall if they didn't plan on dropping them. Specially since there wasn't any indication other countries would do it.