Why Caesar feared Joshua Graham that much?

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by Nightstalker, Dec 12, 2016.

  1. Nightstalker

    Nightstalker The original Vault Dweller

    Dec 7, 2016
    I might be creating so much threads, but, in my own words, I don't really mind. So, we know the so badass Joshua Graham. We are aware he's hard as a fucking rock. Surviving twice to the Legion, one of that times, being burned and letting him fall from the Great Canyon. Then, he returned to Utah, of course, being saved by New Cannanites, or whatever they are called. Caesar knew he was alive, and demanded the White Legs to kill him. After that, he became the Dead Horses (were they called?) leader in battle.

    I don't understand why Caesar feared so much Joshua Graham. He is almost a dead man, nearly burned to ashes, hurted for life, living in Utah. By some people it's said that Graham was an expert legate, maybe not as strong as Lanius is, but clever as fuck. Yes, it's true that because of him, Caesar's Legion lost the First Battle of Hoover Dam, but he was one of closer Caesar friends. Joshua always demonstrated loyalty to Caesar.

    Caesar feared Graham to the point that he sent Ulysses to kill him, one of the most dangerous men in the whole Legion (which, in my opinion, would have killed it). To the point of sending the White Legs to kill the remain of its ashes.

    Opinions, guys?
     
  2. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    He knows too much.
     
  3. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    Joshua knew of Caesar's past as Edward Sallow, member of the Followers, which means that he would never revere Sallow like the rest of the Legion did. Plus Joshua could have harmed the Legion by exposing the truth of their origins to others.

    Also, keep it up with the threads. It's Fallout related so it can at least get people to chime in, even if the topics have been discussed before this.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  4. Nightstalker

    Nightstalker The original Vault Dweller

    Dec 7, 2016
    I got your point, but... Although i think Caesar is a very obsessed man with finishing what he already started, i don't get the point of fearing an almost dead man. We all know Joshua Graham badass's history, how he survived to the Praetorian Guard that burned him to ashes. Is Joshua that dangerous? He don't look as. The scars in his whole body should have him very tied up to Utah. If he wanted to return to the Mojave, he would have done it. But, no. He didn't. I think in Utah is not a big trouble for Caesar.
     
  5. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    In a way, Graham is a loose end. If Caesar won at the Mojave and solidified his empire, the threat that Graham could easily expose him as Edward Sallow and reveal the truth of the Legion's origins would remain.

    So he would dedicate some resources to ensuring the silence of Graham. Ironically, Graham is trying to end his bloodlust so sending the White Legs after him and destroying New Canaan could have simply caused Graham to build up forces to go after Sallow.
     
  6. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Joshua Graham survived being burned alive and dumped off the side of Hoover Dam. He's as much proof levels are a real thing in the post-apocalypse world as canonically exists.

    If he can survive that, Joshua could show up one day and murder everyone in Caesar's camp.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  7. Steve the Enclave grunt

    Steve the Enclave grunt First time out of the vault

    Jan 18, 2017
    I've always thought that Caesar wanted him dead to make a point, that no matter how close to him or high in ranks you are failure is punished by death. To ispire others by fear etc.

    I don't think that anyone in the Legion would belive Graham about Caesar past, and if ever would they care enought.
     
  8. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    Caesar had him burned alive and thrown into the Grand Canyon before declaring him a nonperson. If Graham was to show up again it would weaken Caesar's position.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  9. Steve the Enclave grunt

    Steve the Enclave grunt First time out of the vault

    Jan 18, 2017
    Yeah, I was musing about his motivations to do so.
     
  10. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Graham isn't some random dude off the streets. He was a mythological legendary figure in his own right.

    It's not Random Cuban Soldier saying Fidel Castro was secretly a CIA stooge named John Smith all along, it's Che Guevara.
     
  11. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    Caesar personally saw Joshua Graham executed for his failure. He then declared a Damnatio Memoriae against Joshua Graham, yet the slaves still tell stories about him being alive.

    Joshua Graham being alive shows Caesar's weakness. It shows that he failed to execute one of his own generals, and it shows that it's possible to escape Caesar's wrath.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 4
  12. Steve the Enclave grunt

    Steve the Enclave grunt First time out of the vault

    Jan 18, 2017
    Yeah, but would You belive a random dude in bandages that he was Malpais Legate? The one set on fire etc etc? Most likely not, and legionaires would also not believe. And even if they do believe, they would not speak of it out of fear of Caesar. I agree that Graham is dangerous to the Legion, but more as a symbol of defiance against "devine" Caesar. It doesn't matter what he says or does, the thing that matters is fact that "the son of Mars" is unable to kill him.

    EDIT:Ninjad.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  13. Brandy Beavers

    Brandy Beavers First time out of the vault

    Jan 17, 2016
    There are many reasons for Caesar to fear Joshua Graham. A lot of them have been covered already. Joshua's knowledge of Caesar's past and the reverence the slaves and probably even some Legion soldiers have for him means that he's likely the only person that could take the Legion down from the inside.

    Furthermore, he's a seasoned veteran and has lead men through many successful battles. If Joshua were able to stage some kind of revolt it would serve as a major threat and not be so easily quelled.

    As for not believing that Joshua were The Burned Man, it probably wouldn't be too hard for Joshua to convince people if he wanted to. But remember. This isn't about how likely it is that Joshua would ever attempt such a thing. When we meet him, he seems to have no interest in it. What this is really about is Caesar's fear, which is irrational.

    Even though Caesar is a layered character, he, like all characters, can be boiled down to one trait. Caesar's defining trait, to me, is that he's afraid of losing his power. And that's why he fears Joshua Graham. If Joshua Graham survived and is The Burned Man, then he is the most suited person with strong motive to take Caesar's power.
     
  14. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Dec 6, 2016
    Would you not fear this fucker?



    I know that I would XD