Yet Another Ammo Mod (YAAM) Feedback Thread

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by Haenlomal, May 4, 2010.

  1. Haenlomal

    Haenlomal It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Sep 25, 2003
    Hi all,

    **** UPDATE ****
    Version 1.1a of YAAM is out. The most significant additions are integration with Timeslip's sfall and much improved localization support.

    You can always download the latest version of YAAM from here.

    In the meanwhile, here's the FAQ that's lifted almost word-for-word from the ReadMe file, which should answer most of your questions.

    Cheers,

    -- The Haen.

    Edit: Updated post for v1.1a
     
  2. Josan12

    Josan12 Vault Senior Citizen

    Oct 15, 2007
    Sounds sweet Haen. I look forward to trying it out. :ok:
     
  3. Haenlomal

    Haenlomal It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Sep 25, 2003
    Well, the mods have approved the upload, so now YAAM is available for download. Please check the 1st post, or my signature, for the link.

    In the meantime, I suppose some design and technical details behind the mod are in order, so here's a bit more reading for those so inclined. ;) Or better still, go ahead, and download the mod, and browse through the ReadMe file yourself.

    Edit: Fixed minor typo in engine offset. Thanks Timeslip!
    Edit2: Fixed minor formatting error.
    Edit3: Put new ammo values into a nicer looking table -- can't seem to do much about that huge space and huge font, though...
     
  4. .Pixote.

    .Pixote. Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder

    Sep 14, 2009
    Excellent mod Haenlomal, I look forward to testing it when I have some spare time, and also thanks for the explanation notes – very helpful.
     
  5. Cubik2k

    Cubik2k Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
    Modder

    Nov 22, 2005
    Changes you made are strange but working. I looked at excel sheet and in my opinion it is good choice to change DRmod to DTmod.
    Very usefull explanations about projectiles and I like your vision of how ammo/armors/damage to target works.

    Good job! :ok:
     
  6. Elitech

    Elitech Still Mildly Glowing

    Apr 22, 2008
    I love the FAQ :mrgreen:

    Prolly gonna give it a go after RP 2.1
     
  7. killap

    killap Bear Dude Moderator Modder

    May 16, 2005
    Good job Haen!

    Everyone should be able to enjoy this as an option in the upcoming RP 2.1 installer.
     
  8. Timeslip

    Timeslip Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    Aug 15, 2007
    Re: Yet Another Ammo Mod (YAAM) v1.0a

    The obvious conflict would be sfall, which by extension would cause an incompatibility with most recent mods. I know of at least one change sfall makes in the address range you specified. (0x424AB6, to be precise.)

    Edit: There turned out to be a typo in the address range in the readme, so actually there shouldn't be any direct overlaps between the exe ranges modified by this and sfall, so aside from the crc check they should be compatible. I'd still advise waiting for sfall 2.8 and using sfall's inbuilt version if you want to use this with sfall though, since there could be other indirect problems.

    In any case, sfall is going to barf at the crc change, and will need an ExtraCRC setting before it'll even let you in game.
     
  9. Haenlomal

    Haenlomal It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Sep 25, 2003
    With Timeslip's help (thank! :clap:), I've managed to integrate the engine changes into sfall. This means that YAAM is now compatible with any mod that uses sfall as long as the correct setting is chosen, the modified ammo proto files are in place, and of course PROTO.MSG is also in place (though this last file only affects a display string in Inventory view).
     
  10. Haenlomal

    Haenlomal It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Sep 25, 2003
    Hi all,

    Just a quick heads up that a new version of YAAM (v1.1a) is available -- or it will be, once the mods have approved the file for download. Please see the 1st post for details.

    --- The Haen.
     
  11. Riel88

    Riel88 First time out of the vault

    Mar 30, 2010
    I like YAAM !
     
  12. Silencer

    Silencer Night Watchman Staff Member Admin

    Nov 7, 2003
    Updated file is up.
     
  13. sydney_roo

    sydney_roo Still Mildly Glowing

    Nov 24, 2008
    I like your mod ! Nice job!
     
  14. utunnels

    utunnels First time out of the vault

    Aug 2, 2010
    I installed F2 Restoration Project and it seemed the YAAM damage formula is the default setting.
    Code:
    ;Choose the damage formula used to calculate combat damage.
    ;Don't set this to anything other than 0 unless another mod you're using explicitly tells you to!
    ;0 - Fallout default
    ;1 - Glovz's Damage Fix
    ;5 - Haenlomal's Yet Another Ammo Mod.
    DamageFormula=5
    I'm now having a problem that minigun does minor damage to certain enemies such as Deathclaws(check the screeshot below, I tested with 5mm JHP).




    This is another test with 5mm AP.
    You can see the normal 29 and the crtical forceful-blow 7, strange.

     
  15. Haenlomal

    Haenlomal It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Sep 25, 2003
    Actually, YAAM isn't the default setting for the F2 Restoration Project, unless you used the auto-installer and selected all optional install options at some point with the RP 2.x line.

    Note that simply seeing the DamageForumla to 5 isn't sufficient to activate YAAM. Certain files have to be located in the proper places in order for YAAM to work. More specifically, the manual installer doesn't come with all of the necessary files in order for YAAM to function properly -- you'll have to download YAAM and integrate it with the RP yourself if you're using the manual installer. Note that the converse is also true: if you have YAAM installed, then simply changing the DamageFormula to 0 (Fallout's default calculations) or 1 (Glovz's Damage Fix) will not deactivate my mod. You'll also need to remove the files installed by YAAM in order for the other two modes to work properly.

    Since you mentioned that you are using the the manual installer. I'm guessing that you used the auto installer with all optional installs with RP 2.0 or RP 2.1, and then used the manual installer to upgrade to RP 2.1.1. If this is the case, then YAAM should still be active after the manual upgrade.

    YAAM is working exactly as designed. Here's why:

    The minigun is a weapon that deals 7-11 damage per hit, and it spits out 40 bullets per attack. The 7-11 damage is further modified by the properties of the bullet which you've decided to use.

    The deathclaw target has a Damage Threshold rating of 10 and a Damage Resistance rating of 50%. Note that even with the original damage formula, this is bad news: the damage threshold will totally absorb any attack below 11. And even then, an attack worth 11 points of damage is going to net 1 point of damage, and with the 50% damage resistance, this 1 point of damage will round down to zero. In other words, with no ammo modifiers you'd need to rely to a critical hit to do any damage -- and this is just with the original formula. The formula used in YAAM is even less forgiving!

    Anyway, I've crunched some numbers, with the working assumption that no armor piercing and/or critical hits are inflicted. Below is a chart comparing the YAAM damage formulas and Original damage formulas for both 5mm JHP and 5mm AP ammo, assuming Tough Deathclaws (which are what Melchoir's Pets are) are your target:

    Code:
    Minigun Damage Profile using 5mm JHP ammo
    =========================================
    
    Raw Damage          Modified Damage (Original)          Modified Damage (YAAM)
    ==========          ==========================          ======================
    7                            1                                   0
    8                            1                                   0
    9                            2                                   0
    10                           2                                   0
    11                           2                                   1
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Average:                     1.6                                 0.2
    Std Deviation:               0.5477                              0.4472
    
    Code:
    Minigun Damage Profile using 5mm AP ammo
    ========================================
    
    Raw Damage          Modified Damage (Original)          Modified Damage (YAAM)
    ==========          ==========================          ======================
    7                            0                                   1
    8                            0                                   1
    9                            0                                   2
    10                           0                                   2
    11                           0                                   3
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Average:                     0                                   1.8
    Std Deviation:               0                                   0.8367
    
    Note that this is damage inflicted per bullet hit. Since the Minigun spits out 40 bullets per attack, this can result in quite a bit of damage very quickly.

    The tables should be self-explanatory, but here is a summary:

    1. The minigun is simply not a very efficient weapon, at least as far as Tough Deathclaws are concerned: Even if all 40 bullets hit their mark, and you are using AP ammo, the average damage you will do is 1.8*40=72. Against a creature as tough as the Deathclaw, and against enemies as numerous as Melchoir's Pets, this simply isn't dealing out enough damage for you to do a reasonable job. And of course, chances are slim that all 40 bullets would hit!
    2. Thanks to the Deathclaw's tough hide, JHP ammo is practically useless against them. Again assuming all 40 bullets hit, you'll deal an average of 40*0.2=8(!). If you're using YAAM, you're generally speaking much better off to use AP ammo against tougher targets: save those JHP ammo for unarmored or very lightly armored targets.
    3. With the Original Damage formula, AP ammo is totally ineffective, and JHP ammo is minimally effective: assuming all 40 bullets hit, then the average damage would be 40*1.6=64.

    The bottom line? I'd use some weapon other than the Minigun if I were you. :) Try non-burst energy weapons aimed for the eyes. If you insist on using the Minigun, then better make sure you're stocked up on 5mm AP ammo. Good luck!

    Cheers,

    -- The Haen.
     
  16. utunnels

    utunnels First time out of the vault

    Aug 2, 2010
    Thank you very much for your detailed reply. Now I understand the new ammo damage mod makes AP ammo more worthwhile, right?

    I forgot to metion here (as I metioned in Glovz's topic), I eventually tried the auto installer version of 2.1.1 and did a full installation, so does that mean the YAAM mod was already actived?
     
  17. killap

    killap Bear Dude Moderator Modder

    May 16, 2005
    YAAM is only activated if you choose it from the installer. Everything is optional.
     
  18. utunnels

    utunnels First time out of the vault

    Aug 2, 2010
    Thanks. I will check the options.
     
  19. chenw

    chenw First time out of the vault

    Jan 2, 2008
    complete off topic, Regarding miniguns:

    chances of all 40 bullets hitting the deathclaw, assuming all bullets have a 95% chance to hit, is just over 12.85% (0.95^40)

    Even having at least half of the bullets to hit is only 35.85% chance
     
  20. utunnels

    utunnels First time out of the vault

    Aug 2, 2010
    But, whether a bullet hits or not in the sequence doesn't affect the chance of the next bullet in the sequence.

    And the chance for at least 20 bullets to hit the target = 1 - 0.05^20 = 0.9999....