Why removing the level cap was a bad decision.

Greentoast11

Greentoast11

First time out of the vault
Now that the level cap is gone there is no motivation to make another character, one can do everything on one character. Sort of defeats the point of roleplaying and developing the character.

The player doesn't even really have to worry about what 'Perk' they pick because it really doesn't matter since you will be tasked with choosing again until infinity theoretically.

Opinions ,disagree agree indifferent?
 
Not only was removing the level cap the start of turning FO4 into a single player MMO, it was the gateway into other horrible decisions I feel like.

Because the player can get basically everything in a single playthrough, it feels like Bethesda made the game around that. I was so shocked and angry, for instance, when while doing the Railroad questline, all of a sudden the game expects me to do THE ENTIRE Institute questline for no reason before I can continue with the Railroad! Which basically means, that after this run, I would have 0 reason to ever join/side with the Institute because I've already done all their quests. There's no mystery left. It's the equivalent of, say, in New Vegas, while working with the NCR and being 2 missions away from finishing the game, all of a sudden out of nowhere the game tells you to go work for Caesar for a few hours. It makes no sense, but I can tell you why they did it. Because they knew people would only play through this once, so they tried to throw everything at them in a single playthrough to keep people entertained so they'd keep playing. All it did was piss me off because it removes player choice and decisions.

There's also the fact that, because you can get everything, it feels like that's the reason they took out all the skill checks and the like. "Oh well, they're already going to become gods among men, why restrict them with silly roleplaying and having skill checks? That's just a hinderance, take it out, no need for specific character builds when you can get everything in 1 character!" Because there's no insentive to roleplay, there's no insentive to having all those skill checks that would help someone make their character. For instance, in Old World Blues, if you want to save the Think Tank and really get to know them well, then you're going to have to have at least 90 Speech and a 7 in Intelligence to even understand what they're talking about half the time. That helps you build your character. A normal person isn't going to understand all the technobabble the Think Tank talk about, but a scientist or Follower of the Apocalypse might. Thus you shape your character through these interactions which leads you to making more characters to see what the different outcomes could be. Like having 8 Strength as opposed to 8 Intelligence, which in New Vegas, changes a lot of dialogue options. FO4 has none of that because they expect you to do it all in one go.
 
Adding on to what @Ragemage said It also forces them to have Respawning Dungeons and Radiants, which basically make all your hard work clearing out dungeons and helping settlements seem like f*ck all
 
For me part of any 'role-playing' game is the management of my personal choices and the impact or effect it may have on my character...

I once decided to start a D&D adventure as a cross-classed cross-species to REALLY force such options (back in the day there were heavy penalties for going cross class)

It took me a week before I was able to submit my proposed Level 1 character to the DM, I'd fine tuned every choice and every option specifically just to try and make it 'legal' within the rules and I have to say, even though that game ran for only a few sessions I enjoyed that character so much.

He wasn't able to do anything, he was downright shit at most things...

However, as a level 3 character (once I'd played it a little while) I could hide in plain sight and fire critical enchanted bow shots at point blank range... Utterly preposterous, but made possible because I was forcing myself to see how well I could perform when faced with massive limitations and I'm almost certain that if I'd done the exact opposite, made a character with no regard of limits etc the game would have been as dull as muck, and I'd probably not even remember it.

Limits help enforce choices and they reinforce the rewards of success.
 
I played Fallout 4 and even when cheating myself with 10 levels by the time I was nearing the end line of the game I was at around like 60-70 levels. There are like 281 perk choices for the player. All right? Well guess what happened at lvl 60-70 (can't remember when it was but I decided to cheat at that point because of what I'll say next)? I ran out of shit to do. So yeah, unlimited level cap! What's the point with creating a new character when you can just do everything on one character (getting all perk points)!? No.

By playing the game normally you WILL NOT get to level 280-something. So you will 'not' get all perk points.

So eventually the game's level progression will slow down to a crawl and at a certain point you'll run out of shit to do, well before you max out every perk. The argument of "there's no point in playing the game again because you can just get everything on one character" is a load of shit. The only way you'll get there is through extreme inhuman grinding or by cheating (like I did (and that was a bad choice, elite enemies scale with you so they became obnoxious as fuck with their health)).

So yes, you do have to worry about where to put your perk points if you want a certain character build.

There are other things to attack Fallout 4 on, such as the perk system itself, the dumbing down of SPECIAL, the linearity of the game, the linear quests, the main quest not really amounting to much in choice (again), the dialogue system.

But no level cap? Who fucking cares if the game doesn't have a level cap? You won't be able to reach max level by playing the game normally anyway. And since the game is so bad in so many other ways why does it even matter if it has no level cap?

I don't like this argument levied against Fallout 4 because it is a redundant nitpicky meaningless argument. There's no level cap. So what? Attack Fallout 4 where there's actual arguments to be made. Removing level cap for Fallout 4 makes sense considering the perk system they implemented into it as well as how level progression works where eventually it will slow down to an extreme crawl that it takes forever to level up.

Or is this like Skyrim again where other people magically somehow are able to level up their skills within mere hours to 100 and I had to struggle for 70 hours just to get my main skill up to 100? Like, are we playing the same game? Cause I cheated myself 10 levels early on and by the time I was done with most of the side-content and wanted to get on with the main quest I was at level 60-70 something. Did you, @Greentoast11 get to level 280-something by playing the game normally without cheating or getting exp mods?

Oh that's right, I also got exp-mods that increased exp gained by speech challenges, crit kills and shit like that. And even then, only level 60-70 something. I would probably have ended up at level 80-something through cheating. So I very much doubt anyone in here was able to max out their character by playing the game normally without cheating. Cause if you did? Your game must've been glitched and given you too much exp.

Here:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/164593-fallout-4/72870447
https://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/494632338491069094/
Those are just some other people's experiences with when they finished the game and at what level they were at.

I just fail to see the point in attacking Fallout 4 on this thing when we could rip it apart for its removal of skills, dumbing down of SPECIAL and the perk system in general.

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So anyway, what defeats the purpose of roleplaying is the dialogue system, lack of skill system, a stat system that means fuckall but unlocking new perks and only a handful of perks actually offering anything close to resembling the effect of a skill (hacking, lockpicking, crafting) and the godawful dialogue system as well as the limited choices in quests.

None of which would really be improved with a level cap. You add a level cap then the perk system will still be shit. There's still a lack of skills. SPECIAL is still neutered. So roleplaying would still be fucked.

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All this is accomplishing is making us out to be bitching about things that aren't worth bitching about. Instead we should criticize shit that actually matters. Almost Perfect along with magical bobbleheads in Fallout 3 mattered. Level 50 in FNV with DLC's mattered. This? If any outsider sees this thread we're just going to come across as whiners who whine about everything for the sake of whining because we love whining so much. So no, Fallout 4, on its own merits as a game (not an RPG or a Fallout game, but on its own merits as a shoot n looter) neither benefits or suffers from no level cap due to how the exp requirements goes up to the point that you'll run out of things to do before you even come close to reaching half-way to the actual level cap.
 
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Level caps are about you creating a specific character with strengths and weaknesses, but what's the point of a level cap if the game doesn't acknowledges your character build anyway. The only difference between builds is when you take certain perks. So while the lack of a cap is shit it's merely a symptom of the disease that is the FO4 leveling system.
 
Yeah I can't really see many different character builds coming out of Fallout 4 even with a level cap of let's say 50.
There's sneaking and crafting I suppose? The pacifism perks are meaningless as the game is heavily focused on combat anyway. Then there's what type of coloured stick you'll whack people dead with. Then what? I mean, what role-playing is there really in that awful perk system anyway? It's more like a talent system out of a hack-n-slasher than it is a role-playing system anyway. Sure, there's some things like being able to breathe under water and taking less radiation damage I suppose but how do you 'role-play' with that? All that offers is different tactics for killing shit. Hardly what I'd consider RPG elements in the first place.

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I mean, in FNV characters you create can be very very different in how they approach things and what they are able to accomplish. The only thing in Fallout 4 I can even think of that affects things outside of combat is the speech checks. There's really no quest I can think of where hacking or lockpicking offers you unique quest solutions or anything.
 
The reason the leveling cap was removed was because the average New-Fallout fan would bitch and moan that his mary sue character couldn't do everything and use every weapon like an expert.
 
Mr Fish said:
I mean, in FNV characters you create can be very very different in how they approach things and what they are able to accomplish. The only thing in Fallout 4 I can even think of that affects things outside of combat is the speech checks. There's really no quest I can think of where hacking or lockpicking offers you unique quest solutions or anything.
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On top of that the game goes out of it's way to not only ignore but flat out say fuck you to your character build. I was in the institute like 9 or 10 int, bunches of science perks, only to have an NPC to say "he's not a scientist," I mean what the fuck.
 
Spacemunkey said:
On top of that the game goes out of it's way to not only ignore but flat out say fuck you to your character build. I was in the institute like 9 or 10 int, bunches of science perks, only to have an NPC to say "he's not a scientist," I mean what the fuck.
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Serves you right. Clearly Bethesda has a vision for the story of Fallout 4 that is too complex that they can't leave you alone or else you'll fuck it up. That's why Bethesda has to make sure you're character is always a former army grunt so they can have an excuse to not write any special dialogue make sure their Citizen Kane level story isn't ruined.
 
Who cares about the level cap when playing the game is so damn boring due to the removal of dialogue options that most seasoned rpg players can't be bothered to even finish the storyline?

1. Streamlined dialogue system
2. Generic recycled storyline
3. Lack of any meaningful choices
4. Removal of skills
5. Only 2 major towns
6. Nonsensical minecrafting system
7. Factions being reduced to contrived mechanisms for power fantasies
8. Boring procedurally generated quests
9. Horrible voice acting
10. World is full of hostile raiders and SMs, they aren't even characters but rather targets

Off the top of my head, here's 10 things that bother me about this piece of shit.
I could probably think of another 10 before the level cap crossed my mind. To each their own, though.
 
I think the level cap thing is only an instance of a broader problem with Fallout 4- Your character cannot have any weaknesses, there are simply things he or she is not yet good at.

You can see this right away from the recontextualization of SPECIAL where 1 is now average, instead of ridiculously deficient. You can no longer play a stupid person, a weakling, Mr. Magoo, etc. You're just "not yet superhuman" at those things instead of bad at them.

A good character should be every bit as defined by their weaknesses as their strengths, and that characters start out with no weaknesses and over time become all-powerful are two sides of the same problem coin.
 
In my opinion even if the game had a level cap the majority of the perks in my opinion are fucking boring and useless! Let's not forget that a lot of the perks are just percentage increases that should of been part of the skill progression along with hit chance and range.
I already had about all the perks I needed by level 30 as I didn't want perks like the enemies spraying caps everywhere or stimpacks healing you more when I can cook me a ton of tasty Mirelurk and Deathclaw steaks that heal me way more than the stimpacks which I didn't use when I did play.

Don't get me started on the two perks of Local Leader so I can do things like "Get more preset items", holy shit more ugly looking junk piles that are considered preset items to help build more things for the settlement system that serves absolutely no purpose to the game other than to play Barbie dress up? Big deal.

You will need those percentage perks as you'll gimp yourself fighting bullet sponges if not. I don't understand how anyone would be excited to reach the highest level you can with almost all the perks as you'll burn yourself out especially when the higher ranks will take even more XP, they don't make me go "Hmm which one do I want that will suit my character". It's more like, "Well I have more useless perk points, which perk do I want to bother spending it on?" The perks from Fallout 1 and 2 shit on Fallout 4's perks.
 
SarahGremlins said:
Who cares about the level cap when playing the game is so damn boring due to the removal of dialogue options that most seasoned rpg players can't be bothered to even finish the storyline?
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Pretty much. I'm on my fourth character now and still haven't completed the main story even once, I just can't be bothered.

Mercenary: On the perk points thing, couldn't agree more. I ended up basically ignoring the perk chart because it just had nothing of interest in it, and level locking everything makes any sort of specialist build impossible. "Oh, I have four points to spend... eh, maybe later if i can be bothered." By the time I remember, I've got another four sitting there doing nothing.
 
Radiosity said:
Pretty much. I'm on my fourth character now and still haven't completed the main story even once, I just can't be bothered.

Mercenary: On the perk points thing, couldn't agree more. I ended up basically ignoring the perk chart because it just had nothing of interest in it, and level locking everything makes any sort of specialist build impossible. "Oh, I have four points to spend... eh, maybe later if i can be bothered." By the time I remember, I've got another four sitting there doing nothing.
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I remember I got up to 4 perk points until I seen that stupid handholding reminder to spend my useless perk points to which I did just to do it.
 
Greentoast11 said:
You actually kind of do have to use them, It's very hard to fight later enemies without the 100% extra damage.
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Especially on Survival difficulty prior to the patch, I haven't played since they patched the game and tweaked that difficulty setting but prior to that it took for fucking ever to kill anything. A regular mirelurk took like 8 blasts to the face from a double-barrel shotgun because I didn't have any perks to increase its damage. But if they tweaked Survival to make it less tedious then I guess my experience is outdated.
 
They tweaked Survival? Huh, wonder what they did to it. Not that I care, I edited it myself eventually. I'll likely go back to it next week when the beta hits and try out the new version... but I expect nothing from it because it'll be an 'all or nothing' affair with no granular control, and I really hate disabled fast travel + only being able to save when sleeping. But eh... again, I'll edit those myself if I can, so it might work out ok.
 
I really wish they had separated "survival" (i..e you need to eat, sleep, otherwise take care of yourself) from "combat is harder now."

The appeal of the former is for a more simulationistic experience something that "this thing just won't die no matter how many times I shoot it in the face" actually runs counter to.
 
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