3D or not 3D: the debate continues!

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[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-00 AT 07:55AM (GMT)[p]>>You mean this little bit: "Sex & Romance After The Bomb. Fall in love, get married, and then pimp your spouse for a little extra chump-change. Hey, it's a dark and dangerous world." That seems more violent than sexual. To force someone into whoring seems pretty voilent to me. But, the game doesn't really show anything. It only implies the sexual situations. It's not like it's even graphic writing.

They present it as the mere tip of the iceberg.. it becomes a marketing gimmick. As for the whoring in F2, the prostitutes for the most part give dialog that suggests that they are cynical and bored, not oppressed and scared...

>>No, given the release date of Ultima 9. It could've easily got away with being 2D. In 2-3 years (if not 5-6, or longer) 3D will be a bit more essential.

Only time will tell... well implemented 3D certainly gives gamers something to talk about.. 3D is still in many respects a "developing" technology. When it matures, it will become considerably more viable. The 5-6 year period appears likely.

>>Well, action games sell very well. And, they're forced into being 3D. Simulation games pretty much come in 3D only as well. Even sports games are 3D. I'm not sure why football needs to be in 3D, there's really no advantage to it. RTS games are migrating in that direction (there must be something there for them, since many don't need 3D). Come to think of it, about every genre is either 3D or going that way. They can't all be taking advantage of what 3D offers. Is there some hidden meaning, or could it be...that 3D is becoming the standard, and companies don't want to develop sub-standard games. Now why wouldn't they want to do this, oh, I know...because sub-standard doesn't sell as well.

Note the top 10 bestsellers listed at http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=1042000-16145:

The Sims Livin Large from Electronic Arts
The Sims from Electronic Arts
Age Of Empires II: Conquerors Expansion from Microsoft
Diablo 2 from Blizzard
Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows Of Amn from Interplay
Microsoft Plus Game Pack
Roller Coaster Tycoon from Hasbro Interactive
Roller Coaster Tycoon Loony Landscapes from Hasbro Interactive
Rainbow Six: Covert Ops from Red Storm Entertainment
Sim Theme Park from Electronic Arts

Some games sell well, but some sell better than others. The majority on the list are 2D titles.

>>So we have nothing to worry about. BIS is one of the greatest developers in the industry. They're up there with Bungie (it was sad to hear about their assimilation by Microsoft) and Blizzard. Maybe it has to do with it starting with a 'B'? If so, it could spell good things for Bioware. Back on topic. BIS seems to give the more hardcore role-players what they want (story & depth). I see no reason to go against them deciding 3D for any game. And, if it ends up piss poor...you can say, "I told you so."

Maybe, but I wouldn't rest everything on reputation... F3's dev team may differ from F1 and F2s'. Who knows?

I'm not the kind of person that says "I told you so". I would say to BI, "Good luck", but luck has nothing to do with it. Instead, I wish them well.

>>Even sprites cause slow down. Try summoning 2 groups of skeletons in Baldur's Gate while a group of monsters are attacking. Talk about choppy.

I'd be more inclined to blame that kind of problem on Windows... try the free version of QNX available at qnx.tucows.com.. this cost my firm a small fortune, but now it's free for non commercial use. BeOS is also extremely efficient in its 2D and 3D rendering (also free for NCU). Sadly, until a OS specific version of Wine arrives, they will be unable to play Win9X titles.

>>Wow, that's a major insult. PC Gamer indeed [...] I want it to stay 2D; but understand the need to go 3D.

I withdraw the comment.

>>I have. Although, they seem to avoid the question as to whether 3D is quicker/easier when it comes to artwork.

Depends on how 3D is implemented. There are considerable advantages in the real time rendering of buildings and static objects using 3D. Moving objects, however, are comparibly easier to deal with using 2D sprite elements.

>>And then they don't even support the game after it's released. Sounds to me like Ultima IX wasn't very important to them.

Or not economicaly feasible. Given that U9 needed a high end system, it's only viable means of sale was via its bundling with a high end 3D card or new PC.

>>Just curious, but why use the Fallout (1) engine? I can't imagine coding improved color being any more difficult than editing the Fallout Tactics engine. I also think the Fallout (1) engine is a bad idea. It has amazingly long load times. Which has to be something to do with the engine itself. Baldur's Gate and Planescape loaded like 10 times faster than Fallout 2 (using the same PC).

I could have used F1, F2 and FT as an example. I can think of several ways that the game data and graphics can be loaded... so it would appear that the dev team made the wrong choice... especially given that these files had to be unpacked from the relevant dat files each time a new area was entered. 3D would make on the fly loading more straightforward.

<< Try writing up your 3D fallout tribute game using and open source 3D engine such as Crystalspace. You may surprise us all []! >>

>>Is it free? I'm a bit on the poorer side (until January). If you'd like I could make you a text based Fallout game. I might even be able to code in some kind of piss poor multiplayer.

Crystal space is a free open source 3D engine. A text based "Fallout Tribute" game would be relatively easy to make when you're using a text-tile game. Then you can implement a 2D or 3D display based on the text games coordinates.

Relatively easy, if you break up the component parts of the game _and_ carry adequate planning BEFORE you start coding (planning is absolutely critical, yet in these days of ready desktops, people seem to jump right in without thinking of where exactly they are really going). In any event, the work involved is simply too much for a single person.. luckily, there are a number of modders you can probably enlist, html gurus for a developers website at sourceforge, programmers too impatient to wait for F3 etc etc -- you'll need a Team effort, but there is enough of a Fallout community so the people are out there.

Just look at this open source 3D fantasy RPG at http://egoboo.sourceforge.net. 3D is by no means impossible, it just introduces an additional level of complexity...

>>Oh and that gamesutra link didn't work.

Try www.gamasutra.com.
 
>>>Even sprites cause slow down. Try summoning 2 groups of skeletons in Baldur's Gate while a group of monsters are attacking. Talk about choppy.
>
>I'd be more inclined to blame
>that kind of problem on
>Windows... try the free version
>of QNX available at qnx.tucows.com..
>this cost my firm a
>small fortune, but now it's
>free for non commercial use.
>BeOS is also extremely efficient
>in its 2D and 3D
>rendering (also free for NCU).
>Sadly, until a OS specific
>version of Wine arrives, they
>will be unable to play
>Win9X titles.

Actually it has to do with the nature of 2D graphics in general. What is slow in 2D graphics is copying sprite/image data from one source to another. In Planescape Torment, the game slowed WAY down when there were a lot of dead bodies and treasure laying on the ground. Since it is simply not viable to check if a pixel has been written to in a 2D game, all sprites are simply blitted (copied to a destination bitmap) from back to front overlapping each other as they are blitted.

With 3D, this is overcome by using Z-buffering which eliminates extra bitmap writes.

>Depends on how 3D is implemented.
>There are considerable advantages in
>the real time rendering of
>buildings and static objects using
>3D. Moving objects, however, are
>comparibly easier to deal with
>using 2D sprite elements.

This will change when idSoftware developes their next engine for New Doom. All 3D graphics will be rendered realtime without precompiled lit maps. This will allow for all polygons to move around and change while still retaining perfect lighting. If Fallout were to use this, think of the possibilities...

>I could have used F1, F2
>and FT as an example.
>I can think of several
>ways that the game data
>and graphics can be loaded...
> so it would appear
>that the dev team made
>the wrong choice... especially given
>that these files had to
>be unpacked from the relevant
>dat files each time a
>new area was entered. 3D
>would make on the fly
>loading more straightforward.

It also has to do with the fact that Fallout is a true tile-based engine as opposed to a pre-rendered engine like the Bioware engine used for Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment. Each tile type has to be loaded up and displayed which takes a bit of time.

The problem with the Bioware engine however is the horrible pathing it has. Fallout has nearly perfect pathing techniques and NPCs can even open and close the doors.

>Crystal space is a free open
>source 3D engine. A
>text based "Fallout Tribute" game
>would be relatively easy to
>make when you're using a
>text-tile game. Then you can
>implement a 2D or 3D
>display based on the text
>games coordinates.

Crystal Space is a VERY nice engine. It can even import Quake III maps which is quite advanced.

>Relatively easy, if you break up
>the component parts of the
>game _and_ carry adequate planning
>BEFORE you start coding (planning
>is absolutely critical, yet in
>these days of ready desktops,
>people seem to jump right
>in without thinking of where
>exactly they are really going).
>In any event, the work
>involved is simply too much
>for a single person.. luckily,
>there are a number of
>modders you can probably enlist,
>html gurus for a developers
>website at sourceforge, programmers too
>impatient to wait for F3
>etc etc -- you'll need
>a Team effort, but there
>is enough of a Fallout
>community so the people are
>out there.

The game design and art is the hardest part of making a game. The programming is the easy part. Once you know what you need, it is easy to program that especially with all the libraries that make it easy.

-Xotor-

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>>Actually it has to do with the nature of 2D graphics in general. What is slow in 2D graphics is copying sprite/image data from one source to another. [...] Since it is simply not viable to check if a pixel has been written to in a 2D game, all sprites are simply blitted (copied to a destination
>bitmap) from back to front overlapping each other as they are blitted. With 3D, this is overcome by using Z-buffering which eliminates extra bitmap writes.

There are a number of ways to get around this. 3D would probably be more straightforward in this case..

>>This will change when idSoftware developes their next engine for New Doom. All 3D graphics will be rendered realtime without precompiled lit maps. This will allow for all polygons to move around and change while still retaining perfect lighting.

I agree that 3D is a developing technology. You appear to suggest that BI should put off developing F3 for a few more years? Given that Interplay will be releasing their single player Star Wars RPG in 2002, this certainly appears to be a good idea.

>>It also has to do with the fact that Fallout is a true tile-based engine as opposed to a pre-rendered engine like the Bioware engine used for Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment. Each tile type has to be loaded up and displayed which takes a bit of time.

Coding is a maze, not a motorway. There are several ways that this can be implemented. Nonetheless, the larger the game area loaded, the more inefficient these engines become, even with caching in the background.

<<<Crystal space is a free open source 3D engine. A text based "Fallout Tribute" game would be relatively easy to make when you're using a text-tile game. Then you can implement a 2D or 3D display based on the text games coordinates.>>>

>>Crystal Space is a VERY nice engine. It can even import Quake III maps which is quite advanced.

There are also 3D specific game programming languages that could probably do the trick. Take Darkbasic as an example (http://www.darkbasic.co.uk). Free download too ;)

<<<modders[?] you can probably enlist, html gurus for a developers website at sourceforge, programmers too impatient to wait for F3 etc etc -- you'll need a Team effort, but there is enough of a Fallout community so the people are out there.>>>

>>The game design and art is the hardest part of making a game.

I would find the game design the most enjoyable part of the development process. Maybe, by trawling through this message board, you can find the elements required to make such a game. Moreover, game design need not require a knowledge of programming nor the ability to draw well.

As for art, there are some people that can produce great art with both hands tied behind their back.. it's a matter of finding those best suited to the job. Failing that, "borrow" and "retouch".

>>The programming is the easy part. Once you know what you need, it is easy to program that especially with all the libraries that make it easy.

I get uneasy when people say that "programming is easy" -- it depends on what kind of application you're trying to develop, the platform and language used, and the time frame involved. Without commercial considerations (such as deadlines and budgets) it is likely that an open source "Fallout Tribute" game might well surpass anything BI could dream up ( _given time_). Then again, like F3, it's still pure vapourware. Myself? I would love to code something to model political, economic and story based elements for such a game... but I would find other parts of such a game too tedious to code.

That said, there are a number of free for download C/C compilers available, so people can learn via trial and error. Moreover, volunteers could still help in areas of advocacy, web sites, recruitment etc. One or two people is a start, but it is not enough!

Merlin Jones PhD
 
>I get uneasy when people say
>that "programming is easy" --
>it depends on what kind
>of application you're trying to
>develop, the platform and language
>used, and the time frame
>involved. Without commercial considerations
>(such as deadlines and budgets)
>it is likely that an
>open source "Fallout Tribute" game
>might well surpass anything BI
>could dream up ( _given
>time_).

Unless you're spending time developing an extremely intensive 3D engine or the like, the basic game programming is the easy part. It is merely converting words into code. A lot of people jump into coding without planning, they say they're going to put a lot of features in but never list what they're going to do or how it will be implemented.

What I also mean by game design is also laying out the basic way each function needed for the game will be built. For example, say I need a script interpreter for the game. I'd list each process needed to parse the code, convert it into program-readable format, and then lexical analysis, etc. Then I'd further break it down into smaller subcomponents. After a while the design is almost the same as the code would be, except it wouldn't be code.

>Then again, like
>F3, it's still pure vapourware.
> Myself? I would love
>to code something to model
>political, economic and story based
>elements for such a game...
>but I would find other
>parts of such a game
>too tedious to code.

Not really. The hard part would be the algorithms to attach it to the game. You'd say, "Okay, there needs to be an interface for the economic model, you put the button for the interface on the MAIN interface at (this) location. The eco-interface must include the following options.. blah blah blah.. option #1 has these sub options, blah blah blah. The first sub option produces (this) effect, and the way this is accomplished is to tap into (this) data and compute it with (this) formula. The result is then given to a function that does (something). That function uses (this) algorithm to produce (this) result which will then be added to the players overall score.. etc." Basically it is a program schematic in english form..

>That said, there are a number
>of free for download C/C
> compilers
>available, so people can learn
>via trial and error.

And that's where "programming is hard" comes in, trial and error. If you do not have a plan, your game will be a hard process.

>Moreover,
>volunteers could still help in
>areas of advocacy, web sites,
>recruitment etc. One or two
>people is a start, but
>it is not enough!

-Xotor-

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<< Note the top 10 bestsellers... >>

I am very surprised by that list. Usually, you see 2-4 crappy bargain bin games on the list (like when hunting games were at the top of the list).

<< F3's dev team may differ from F1 and F2s'. Who knows? >>

It would have to be different. Some of the people, who worked on FO1, FO2, or both, created Troika or joined up shortly after.

Skie
 
>>Unless you're spending time developing an extremely intensive 3D engine or the like, the basic game programming is the easy part. It is merely converting words into code.

In the case of a "Fallout Tribute" game, I would say a fair amount of code. Easy from an purely intellectual point of view, but time consuming if one also has other things to do (eg family, business commitments)....

>>A lot of people jump into coding without planning, they say they're going to put a lot of features in but never list what they're going to do or how it will be implemented.

I'll add one point. Often features come to mind during the process of coding (or after the compiled source is released for beta or general consumption). As such, the codebase must remain "open" enough for additional implementation. Many open source projects, on the other hand, by relying on a build it and fix approach, tend to have a few hiccups as early builds "inspire" drastic additions to the code base.

>>> Myself? I would love to code something to model political, economic and story based elements for such a game... but I would find other
>>parts of such a game too tedious to code.<<<

>>Not really. The hard part would be the algorithms to attach it to the game. You'd say, SNIP! That function uses (this) algorithm to produce (this) result which will then be added to the players overall score.. etc." Basically it is a program schematic in english form..

When I say tedious, I mean boring and time consuming.

As for the 'interface", this would be completely behind the scenes, being indirectly affected by the actions of the player and his NPC team (leaving room for multiplayer expansion). For example, gold, jet, brahmin prices and movements nbetween towns and the actions of non-team NPCs would be modelled and allow for a true non-linear game. Stories and timed scripted events can be imposed either independently of the model (eg UFO hits Vault City) or based on the developing economic and political situation created by the player and the model.... I've thought quite abit about how it would be implemented. I wouldn't enjoy coding the fine points of combat, graphical engine etc as much.. that's personal preference on my part..

<<<That said, there are a number of free for download C/C compilers available, so people can learn via trial and error.<<<

>>And that's where "programming is hard" comes in, trial and error. If you do not have a plan, your game will be a hard process.

I'm thinking that those that have never programmed with C/C before will start with "Hello World", play with it a bit, and gradually progress to a point where they can assist with coding... in the meantime, there are other aspects of developing a "Tribute" game that do not require a solid programming background.
 
>>I am very surprised by that list. Usually, you see 2-4 crappy bargain bin games on the list (like when hunting games were at the top of the list).

Probably depends on how the list is compiled. I'm sure you could find a list dominated by 3D titles if you looked hard enough. Nonethless, the titles on the list and many bargain bin entries work well on low end PCs.

So how's progress on that "Fallout Tribute" game you were offering to start? Count me in! :)
 
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