A Few Intriuging Concepts

[Lepidus]

Despite the fact that Fallout 3 isn't very similar to the first Fallout and that I dislike the direction in which Bethesda is taking the game's plot, a few concepts in Fallout 3 still catch my interest.

1:Finding food and Water: In the first Fallout, I loved the idea that one random encounter is dehydration, and I am interested to see how this plays out, when Bethesda releases Fallout 3. If you don't have to constantly babysit your character with these basic needs, then it should be an interesting spin on RPG gameplay (that is, if other games haven't done this [decently] in the past).

2:Traveling the Wastes in Real Time While traveling and time (also the representation of time passing and the necessity of planning your journeys in accordance to how much time you have to complete your goal) was excellently executed in the first Fallout, I am once again interested in how this will translate into real time, especially if one will need to sleep after a certain amount of travel during the day).

3:Ranks Within the Brotherhood of Steel: While the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 3 breaks the original Californian Brotherhood's cannon, I am interested to see how well a ranking system would be implemented here.

4: Damage-With-Usage System Okay, most games have not used this system well, and I admit that readily. If this system is dictated by careless use (i.e. using the butt of your rifle in melee combat in lieu of your knife, or your fists) and critical failures, then it should also put and interesting spin on gameplay.

Well, there you have it, four concepts that may make or break Fallout 3. While the game may be a canonical nightmare, that doesn't mean that we won't be able to sap some fun out of it...

 

[Cow]

gameplay (that is, if other games haven't done this [decently] in the past).

I honestly can't think of a single game that had a hunger clock that wasn't stupid. Roguelikes generally have them but you get hungry literally after 10 minutes. There's a stat called "corpses eaten" and I'd love to see what karmic backlash you'll get for being a cannibal. Maybe you'll get a commendation at the end of the game if you finish as a vegetarian or something.

2:Traveling the Wastes in Real Time

This is what I'm looking forward to the most. Fallout's universe was the second biggest draw for me (killing stuff was the first) and I was disappointed that there were only a handful of locations that you could actually explore. Being in an actual tangible world is what I'm loving the most.

3:Ranks Within the Brotherhood of Steel:

If anything rank means extra privileges a la Guilds in Morrowind. Maybe this will break the tradition in Fallout of being able to pick up Power Armor in the first 30 minutes although previews have shown you picking up portable nuke launchers in the wild so I'm probably wrong.

4: Damage-With-Usage System

Again, as long as it's not retarded I like the idea. System Shock 2 and STALKER played around with damage systems but weapons degraded waaaaay too fast. If Fallout 3 has a decent damage model I wouldn't mind taking extra special care of my big guns.

 

[Moving Target]

I honestly can't think of a single game that had a hunger clock that wasn't stupid. Roguelikes generally have them but you get hungry literally after 10 minutes. There's a stat called "corpses eaten" and I'd love to see what karmic backlash you'll get for being a cannibal. Maybe you'll get a commendation at the end of the game if you finish as a vegetarian or something.

I agree with Cow. Looking for food really detracts from the fun of the game. Try and play the early Ultima games, or Realms of Arkania, and not get pissed off at constantly needing food and water. Not possible.

Though the Corpses Eaten thing, if it's true, is stupid as hell.

2:Traveling the Wastes in Real Time

This is what I'm looking forward to the most. Fallout's universe was the second biggest draw for me (killing stuff was the first) and I was disappointed that there were only a handful of locations that you could actually explore. Being in an actual tangible world is what I'm loving the most.

I think the idea there was that there just wasn't too much left. There were hundreds of squares of ruins in the Boneyard, but not too much in them... there were a few Vaults out there, some new towns... but that's it, really.

We don't know how 'full' Fallout 3 will be, but it seems like most of the settlements are clustered pretty close together.

Finding them might be a toughie... unless the quest compass is in. Nobody's sure if it is.

3:Ranks Within the Brotherhood of Steel:

If anything rank means extra privileges a la Guilds in Morrowind. Maybe this will break the tradition in Fallout of being able to pick up Power Armor in the first 30 minutes although previews have shown you picking up portable nuke launchers in the wild so I'm probably wrong.

I wouldn't doubt that rank means extra priveledges... though it's stupid to even have the possibility open. You weren't an official member of the Brotherhood in FO1, and in 2, they were even less available. They just saw the Vault Dweller as a rube who they could use to go get stuff out of the Glow.

Also- Power Armor in the first 30 minutes... was that after you played it, and paid attention to the order of events? Cuz I'm pretty sure you wouldn't just stumble into it first time through. There are also 'speed' walkthroughs that let you beat the game in about 20 minutes; it's not really probable that, if you played the game the way it was meant to be played, you'd figure out how to get the Power Armor so early.

4: Damage-With-Usage System

Again, as long as it's not retarded I like the idea. System Shock 2 and STALKER played around with damage systems but weapons degraded waaaaay too fast. If Fallout 3 has a decent damage model I wouldn't mind taking extra special care of my big guns.

I've got to say, I'm just not too much of a fan of it. I know it's very common in computer games with weapons, and quite honestly, I realize that's why Bethseda did it, but it's just another one of those irritating things they could have left out.

Not nearly as irritating as water/food usage, but still quite unnecessary.

 

[Jim Cojones]

You weren't an official member of the Brotherhood in FO1, and in 2, they were even less available. They just saw the Vault Dweller as a rube who they could use to go get stuff out of the Glow.

Actually, what I remember is that BoS was pretty sure nobody can go to the Glow and come back (they've had sent some own men before). They told VD to go there just because he insisted on joining them that they thought it would be a good way to get rid of him.

 

[horse]

those are all taken straight out of vanilla stalker or stalker with oblivion lost modification. i really like that, and all of it!

- finding food and water: oblivion mod; after a time, you HAVE to eat or suffer damage over time
- rt travel: vanilla stalker, you had 24 hrs to fulfill quests, and according to that, you had to plan your route. i didnt like the quest timer too much, in OL it is abandoned, but stil you had to think about where to go when and be aware of the massive respawns.
- ranks: a great motivator; getting friendly with factions, better repair costs according to rank, better prices according to rank.
- damage per usage: should be moderate, adds a great deal of realism. you dont leave a battle unscathed in health, armor and weaponry. actually, stalker weapons didnt degrade too fast, it was the armor... especially the one after x16, my favorite armor.

 

[ScarcticCG]

1:Finding food and Water: In the first Fallout, I loved the idea that one random encounter is dehydration, and I am interested to see how this plays out, when Bethesda releases Fallout 3. If you don't have to constantly babysit your character with these basic needs, then it should be an interesting spin on RPG gameplay (that is, if other games haven't done this [decently] in the past).

I love systems like this, even in STALKER when it sometimes just felt like busywork, it was fun having to scavenge for food, in fear of starving to death. It should work however they employ it.

3:Ranks Within the Brotherhood of Steel: While the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 3 breaks the original Californian Brotherhood's cannon, I am interested to see how well a ranking system would be implemented here.

I figure this is an attempt to make oblivion's guild system work in fallout.

4: Damage-With-Usage System Okay, most games have not used this system well, and I admit that readily. If this system is dictated by careless use (i.e. using the butt of your rifle in melee combat in lieu of your knife, or your fists) and critical failures, then it should also put and interesting spin on gameplay.

Once again, STALKER did this amazingly, and it added to the experience. Hard to see how they could mess it up.

 

[M-26-7]

The damage in usage things should be, at least for weapons more of a long-term temporary effect. For instance you might use a gun a lot and eventually it begins to jam, then that happens more frewuently, maybe it isn't as accruate because the sights aren't zeroed well, it takes more time to reload due to wear and tear of the lower receiver, etc. Each weapon would degrade a little differently, obviously rifles don't wear in the same way a rocket launcher does. Also guns shouldn't stop working, EVER, at least not completely. It could get to the point where you it jams every time you pull the trigger, but guns don't just POOF evaporate after too much use. Also there should be places to get them repaired or the repair skill should be usable on guns. As for armour, I think they should make it so that armour is damaged when an enemy has it equipped so that when you pick it up it won't be in perfect condition.
Damage-with-use was as annoying as hell in SS2 though.

 

[cronicler]

On Wear and Tear of guns over time:
(Warning: a bit of gun rant)

Not to go too deep on the subject you can say / assume there are 2 main basic factors about durability loss on guns;
the temporary durability loss caused by barrel fouling (left powder residue piling up and choking the gun / decreasing effectiveness), Edit dirt accumulated in your travels, banging the stock while climbing and mis-aligning it and critical failures of light sort.
the permanent durability loss is caused by using the gun itself (heating and cooling the metal parts repeatedly that is) and of course heavy critical mistakes.

The temp durability loss is negated by the cleaning - regular maintenance of your gun. if you don't clean it it will become permanent type soon.

The permanent dura loss occurs slowly over time just by using the weapon or if you are impatient you can use the rifle-butt as a club and misalign the whole rifle "expertly". However in real life you would need to put 1000 to 2500 shots thru your high power rifle before barrel falls to 75% or 80% and starts pulling off your aim at long distances noticably. (the numbers go way, way up for smaller calibers, then again automatic weapons can put out a lot of bullets while you take 1 shot with rifle)


What should this all mean in game terms?
As a rough count, if you cleaned your weapon to its 85% max durability (wastelands remember? except some mostly handcrafted new pieces you are going to be using "old as mountains" crap.), you should be able to go thru a fire fight something in the lenght of 1,5x or 2 x Military Base of Fallout 1 before your weapon durability falls to 50% or 45%.

This feature (if correctly balanced on the scale "not really important for gameplay" <-> "A forced pain in the posterior" ) could be a nice "immersun" value piece. We shall see if they will implement this in any reasionable way.
(Btw am i wrong or we really dont have the option to add scopes etc to the weapons in the game?)

 

[Texas Renegade]

Actually, there is another form of damage, just from carrying it around the waste that would lead to the wear and tear.

Banging it off of objects when climbing over them or hitting the deck to avoid gun fire or an exposion.

Plus there is the consideration that all your weapons won't be able to be restored to 85% just be cleaing.

If you scrounge a 200 year old hunting rifle off of a dead super mutant, it will take more then cleaning to get it up to 85% I would think.

 

[cronicler]

Actually, there is another form of damage, just from carrying it around the waste that would lead to the wear and tear.

Sorry for my weird style. (English is not my main language etc) i was assuming this fact when i said dirt but yes i should have mentioned it.

If you scrounge a 200 year old hunting rifle off of a dead super mutant, it will take more then cleaning to get it up to 85% I would think.

That %85 weapon; if i can explain it properly: You are right that a 200+ year old rifle wouldnt be in any realisticaly good condition (except being vacuum packen and forgotten in a climate controlled; aka not too damp; bunker. The %85 durability rifle is your own lovingly maintained ( to best of your ability), fitted with scavenged parts and heavyly customrised rifle. It will really be silly if we can get our hands on any decent weapon with more than 55%-60% durability from a regular slaver/mutant.

A BoS/Enclave Soldier loot: %80-85 durability weapons (at max)
(Soldiers are taught to take care of their weapons and these people do have access to "new" stuff)
A Gang Leader/Sherrif/Merc. Guard: %65-70 dura loot. (at max)
(These people have means and need to get their hands on the best they can find)
A normal Slaver / Mutant / Raider: 40%-50% dura loot. (at max)
(Canonfodder. maybe a better loot now and then but i dont hope much)

 

[Cow]

the temporary durability loss caused by barrel fouling (left powder residue piling up and choking the gun / decreasing effectiveness), Edit dirt accumulated in your travels, banging the stock while climbing and mis-aligning it and critical failures of light sort.

One positive thing I can say about Fallout 3 if anything is the weapon design. All the new weapons like energy guns and mini-nuke launcher or whatever work fine, I can understand that, but any 20th century firearm shouldn't even operate properly. Fallout 3's guns look like they're literally taped and welded together by a 10 year old with a blowtorch. Even if it doesn't affect performance it adds a bit to the atmosphere to see these dirty dingy weapons lying around.

 

[Phancypants]

A BoS/Enclave Soldier loot: %80-85 durability weapons (at max)
(Soldiers are taught to take care of their weapons and these people do have access to "new" stuff)
A Gang Leader/Sherrif/Merc. Guard: %65-70 dura loot. (at max)
(These people have means and need to get their hands on the best they can find)
A normal Slaver / Mutant / Raider: 40%-50% dura loot. (at max)
(Canonfodder. maybe a better loot now and then but i dont hope much)

Most guns are stupidly easy to maintain. Pistols based on the 1911, AK's (very popular stateside, despite it's 'terrorist' reputation), and pretty much anything that isn't a desert eagle or AR-15 based, are extremely long lasting with just basic maintanence.

If a gun is left in the sun, baking in a dusty environment, you'll likely need to give it a good cleaning/oiling. Corrosion may be an issue after 200 years, but most firearms now are built from corrosion resistent materials, so I doubt they'd be unrecoverable. The big part failure from robust guns is going to be springs, which could be repaired/rebuilt without fancy equipment. If someone's been using it, it wouldn't be suprising to find weapons still in good condition.

 

[Alphadrop]

Don't forget armanent factories still exist. For instance the Gun Runners in Fallout 1 make their own weapons (I'm pretty sure advanced areas like the NCR have factories as well).

 

[cronicler]

Arnament factories are a factor but how much do you belive they can supply to frontline troops? Thats why i said it should be around 80%-85% durability loot from BoS/Enclave. They have the newly built weapons but those weapons will usually see hard use before you can get your grubby hands on them (probably the last usage will be against you too )

Gunrunners: Do you belive any decent tactician in Enclave is going to allow a seperate arms manufactory exist? I wouldnt be suprised if any gun manufactory in FO3 area was raided/destroyed by unknown hostiles (*cough* en *cough* clave *cough*) who had access to poison gas and similar weapons. Your usual "defending against wasteland scum" organisation wouldnt have any real prepared defence against such an assault

Most guns are stupidly easy to maintain. Pistols based on the 1911, AK's (very popular stateside, despite it's 'terrorist' reputation), and pretty much anything that isn't a desert eagle or AR-15 based, are extremely long lasting with just basic maintanence.

If a gun is left in the sun, baking in a dusty environment, you'll likely need to give it a good cleaning/oiling. Corrosion may be an issue after 200 years, but most firearms now are built from corrosion resistent materials, so I doubt they'd be unrecoverable. The big part failure from robust guns is going to be springs, which could be repaired/rebuilt without fancy equipment. If someone's been using it, it wouldn't be suprising to find weapons still in good condition.

I don't dispute your claim on the hardiness of infantry weapons. We have to remember that those guns are designed to function in the hands of soldiers and belive me a soldier can break anything without meaning to. The fact that you are missing/forgetting is the 200 year period's work. "Most" of the guns we will find there were not sitting out in the sidelines. They were being used and used constantly. Even the best gun barrel wears out with use. Thats why instead of the Hi-Tech mats, we will probably see a lot of blacksmith crafted + electric lathe drilled kinds of barrels etc.

 

[McGunnin]

I've been a member here before but mostly lurked because they won't allow Hotmail addresses.

Anyways here is what I think would be the perfect "damage with use system" related to weapons.

You have two indicators for each weapon. One is for the overall "condition" of the gun (for instance) like wear and tear of the barrel, springs, pins etc. and one is the "cleanliness" (can't think of a better term right now, maintenance, lube etc.) of the gun.

As you use the gun the cleanliness goes down, over all the condition goes down very little while the gun is clean but once the cleanliness is 0 the condition starts to reduce more drastically so you either have to clean it in the field with a cleaning kit to get the cleanliness back up or is starts to take a lot more damage to the condition.

With use, even if you keep it clean, the condition slowly degrades (much faster if not cleaned and maintained) after a lot of usage. Once the condition degrades to a certain point you start getting more and more malfunctions, bad aim, jams etc. to fix this all you have to do is have a parts kit for guns to keep it simple, and a repair skill of a certain amount or pay someone to fix it for you. Once it is repaired the condition goes back up to 100%.

I think this would be a lot more realistic than a gun just becoming trash eventually no matter what. In reality a well maintained gun with a few parts will out last your life time. Plus it really pisses me off when you get a cool rare item in a game and it just dissolves after a while, lame, very lame.

 

[artmiser]

From what I have heard/read water in the game is the primary source of healing.. Not needed day to day but you will find yourself drinking for the health benefits. Heh health and rads.

Guns degrade with use, I hate that, I can't begin to describe my hate for that. I can put hundreds of rounds through an assault rifle before I need to clean it, yeah there old but they worked before you picked them up. I can see some logic in using it for old energy weapons, but that chinese AK should last.

You use your repair skill to fix your own weapons, and its used for the starting "health" of your custom weapons. I can live with that I guess, just going to be a tag skill.

Side note for the fatman hate, its supposed to be a rare weapon and rare heavy ammo. And we don't have to use it.

 

[M-26-7]

Side note for the fatman hate, its supposed to be a rare weapon and rare heavy ammo. And we don't have to use it.

That's how I deal with the holocaust. I hate it so I just cover my ears and scream and it disappears.

 

[artmiser]

Side note for the fatman hate, its supposed to be a rare weapon and rare heavy ammo. And we don't have to use it.

That's how I deal with the holocaust. I hate it so I just cover my ears and scream and it disappears.

Ok... comparing ignoring a weapn in a game to the holocaust... Hmm not much a grip on reality im thinking.

 

[Texas Renegade]

I have to agree that is a pretty dumb comparison to make.

On the weapons, I am curious if the weapons reach a point where they fail to function, or if their accuracy just degrades to a level that makes them unuseable.

Maintaning accuracy in older guns is a problem.

 

[TheRatKing]

I just finished playing STALKER and I think they implemented a lot of these elements very nicely. Finding food was not hard at all and seemed extremely realistic. Most enemies carried some canned food or sausage and it was easy to restock your food supply. You only had to eat one piece of food every half day or so IIRC. Mostly, the system was about inventory management and the "price" of food was the weight it had. However, I had one very memorable experience in one of the areas where it was pitch dark (OL mod) and I was starving for food. Searching the area in the dark for food did not feel like an annoyance, but an element that displayed a lot of realism and immersion for me. I don't really see this in Fallout, but it might work.

Even sleeping worked well in the Oblivion Lost mod. You would try to sleep in a safe area, but sometimes you would end up tired in the middle of doing something in a dangerous area. The choice would have to be made to sleep and possible encounter mutants or a blowout, or you could attempt to finish what you were doing while dizzy. (You could even drink a soft drink for the caffeine boost).

Concerning weapon degrading, STALKERs model was good, especialy in OB. Almost all random bandit weapons would be VERY low quality, and it seemed realistic. We already know that in Fallout, the system is different. Weapons degrade, and you cannibalize other weapons to repair it. I wonder if we have the same sort of system for Armour.

In STALKER, when a weapon degraded, it jammed more, and you have to reload the gun when it jams. Also, I think that the cone increases, and the recoil increases. I really liked how they implemented these features and I hope Fallout uses them.