Agility & Armor Class

R

Ravager

Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Did anyone ever try increasing the AC given by Agility?

I thought it would be better if the only AC increases where given by AG - mostly.

It would actually make sense since most of the armors are heavy or simply make you a bigger target. The more massive your armor gets or heavy the worse you'd get at dodging and the more easy it would be to hit you.

So a really light armor like leather or combat would make you harder to hit (wouldn't affect AC), but at the same time you'd take somewhat more damage and while wearing a power armor you'd be more easy to hit (decrease AC), but you'd have more damage resistance.

Makes sense? And is there anyone interested in helping me out?
 
I remember Josan12 and I were talking about this a while back. It is an idea that makes sense to me. Not sure what, if anything, Josan12 did regarding a mod incorporating this.
 
Yeah. My idea was to have the player start out with a significantly higher AC, and then have each progressively heavier set of armor reduce that AC, so that by the time the player is in a suit of power armor their AC is -20 or something - meaning they get hit by every attack.

The gameplay philosiphy is that ALL types of armor are good - rather than the linear power-armor-is-better-in-every-way situation you have in the game as is.
So theoretically, the player would be able to get through the WHOLE game in their vault pajamas - of course their only hope would be to be able to dodge attacks using their high AC. But dodging bullets is a possibly a little .... unconvincing - although i would think of it not so much as dodging bullets rather than the attacker missing as the player is moving around alot more in his pajamas than in power armor.

A key problem i stumbled on is that while it is possible to increase the players default AC (based on AG) ALL other critters in the game would need to have their AC's increased to bring them up to the same par as the player - otherwise the game would start out INCREDIBLY easy and end up a little harder than it is now.

Can a global script be rigged to increase all critters AC?
 
You could possibly write a hook script to the function that runs whenever the game calculates anyone's chance to hit with an attack, and incorporate some clever procedure of adding the AC based on the defender's worn armor, but I don't know if a script like that has access to all variables. We'd have to ask someone who knows, and they tend to be mighty tight-lipped about it :D
 
Josan12 said:
Can a global script be rigged to increase all critters AC?
Click to expand...

Untested, except insofar as making sure it compiles, so ymmv.
Code: 
procedure start;

#include "../headers/sfall.h"
#include "../headers/define.h"

procedure start begin
  variable critter;
  if game_loaded then begin
    set_global_script_type(1);
    set_global_script_repeat(100);
  end else begin
    foreach critter in list_as_array(LIST_CRITTERS) begin
      if(critter!=dude_obj and get_critter_extra_stat(critter, STAT_unused)==0) then begin
        set_critter_extra_stat(critter, STAT_unused, 1);
        set_critter_extra_stat(critter, STAT_ac, get_critter_extra_stat(critter, STAT_ac)+20);
      end
    end
  end
end

Edit: Or yes, as magnus suggests another option would be to use the ToHit hookscript, to do something to the hit chance independent of ac.
 
Ok I could be completely wrong here, but...

I thought that the higher your AC the more likely critters are to run away from combat... It certainly feels like it when I play (suckers run off when they see me in Power Armor, but stay and fight when I'm wearing the Leather Jacket).

I'm probably wrong though.
 
Hmmm... we need someone to confirm percisely how AC is used in the engine.

Certain ammo minuses from AC suggesting this makes the ammo more accurate.

But given as armor gets better the AC value increases, this suggests all that may need to be done is to reverse this. Change the armor AC values such that they start high with weaker armor and get lower with better armor.

Hope this makes sense.
 
Josan12 said:
Yeah. My idea was to have the player start out with a significantly higher AC, and then have each progressively heavier set of armor reduce that AC, so that by the time the player is in a suit of power armor their AC is -20 or something - meaning they get hit by every attack.

The gameplay philosiphy is that ALL types of armor are good - rather than the linear power-armor-is-better-in-every-way situation you have in the game as is.
So theoretically, the player would be able to get through the WHOLE game in their vault pajamas - of course their only hope would be to be able to dodge attacks using their high AC. But dodging bullets is a possibly a little .... unconvincing - although i would think of it not so much as dodging bullets rather than the attacker missing as the player is moving around alot more in his pajamas than in power armor.

A key problem i stumbled on is that while it is possible to increase the players default AC (based on AG) ALL other critters in the game would need to have their AC's increased to bring them up to the same par as the player - otherwise the game would start out INCREDIBLY easy and end up a little harder than it is now.

Can a global script be rigged to increase all critters AC?
Click to expand...
It would be easier to use the mapper and change all relevant protos.

@Timeslip
Hmmm... thought you were against using scripts to change things that be done otherwise. :P
 
I don't agree completely with the idea of heavier armor == easier to hit. Sure, the heavier an armor is more difficult to move and thus, to dodge blows. However the Armor Class concept is not only based on the agility/dexterity of a character. If an armor is heavier it could (and usually) mean it is made with better and harder materials, rendering a weak hit into a hardly noticeable breeze that just bounces off the armor.

I'm not sure I'm expressing myself right...


In any case, wearing a difficult-to-move armor should only decrease AC bonus given by Agility (or none at all with the Kamikaze trait).

I actually never bothered with AC in the game. Usually my unarmed PCs are very difficult to get hit and my armed ones just have lots of HP and/or stimpaks.
 
@pelicano
making armor easier to hit does not mean it makes it easier to cause damage

AC is not used in anyway when calculating damage and nor should it be.
 
Yes, i understand what Pelicano points out - which is that traditionally in RPG's, AC is intended to represent the 'thickness of armor', and thus the chance that the attack will be deflected. IMO, this works fine and is quite convincing in fantasy medieval RPG's (Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter etc) but i find it a little less convincing when it comes to guns .... a metal breastplate does a great job having a chance of deflecting a sword - but a bullet? Please.

This mod would require a slight rethink of the concept of 'Armor Class' (AC) to DC - 'dodge class' or something, which represents the the player moving around alot in light armor with a high 'DC', and this being harder to hit. With a low DC he's clunking around in big old power armor and is a big, slow, fat target.
Of course in FO's turn-based combat critters are completely static but as with any turn-based game this is really a representation - a foundation for the player to build on using their imagination.

That's how i see it, anyway. I fully appreciate that to many players AC is AC and that's it. If this mod was to be willed into reality it would require players to think of AC as DC. AC/DC. Whoa - Back in Black! :D

Anyways - thanks for that script, Timeslip. I will test it out and then spam you with many noob questions and you will regret helping me!! ;)

Only kidding ... :mrgreen:
 
Glovz said:
AC is not used in anyway when calculating damage and nor should it be.
Click to expand...

Indeed. And I never said otherwise. I just say that a heavy armor shouldn't have lower AC just because it is difficult to move in it. AC is a measure of defense, to calculate if an opponent land a _successful_ hit on the attacked character (not on his armor). That's why in DnD the "heaviest" armors (higher in category) have the highest armor ratings and bigger dexterity bonus AC penalties. They offer better protection but limit movement. All of that just to see if damage should be calculated and applied to the character.

I guess it can be kind of redundant in fallout as there are already a damage threshold and resistance statistics in all armors. That's just another perspective.

/Edit/

My opinion? Like X-Com. If the opponent has a good accuracy using his weapon the bullet will probably hit you no matter your armor. If you wear a good armor then you survive. If you wear a crappy armor then you die.
 
Most of the time i just gave my followers power armor & used bridgekeepers robe + all the armor implants myself.
Most of my playthroughs are based on immersion or roleplaying and allot of the time they are outdoorsman, survivors or lone wanderers who benefit more from staying off radar than being a mobile tank.
So i cant wait to play with these changes !

(cant wait to play with the difficult/survivor mod you guys are making ! )
Bye !
 
Josan12 PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:19
Yes, i understand what Pelicano points out - which is that traditionally in RPG's, AC is intended to represent the 'thickness of armor', and thus the chance that the attack will be deflected. IMO, this works fine and is quite convincing in fantasy medieval RPG's (Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter etc) but i find it a little less convincing when it comes to guns .... a metal breastplate does a great job having a chance of deflecting a sword - but a bullet? Please.
Click to expand...

And it is possible to dodge a bullet fired by a skilled shooter?

-------

My opinion:

Give ranged weapons a bonus against AC (if possible), but increase their range penalty (you'll need MUCH higher skill points to hit a distant target).

Give guns/ammo negative DR values or give melee weapons positive DR values to make them work differently.

However, it is not an easy job to re-balance them.
 
Glovz said:
@Timeslip
Hmmm... thought you were against using scripts to change things that be done otherwise. :P
Click to expand...
No, the exact and utter opposite. I'm against hacking the exe to do anything that can be easily scripted.

Luckily Haenlomal isn't, so it seems you get your level 6 party members after all. :P
 
utunnels said:
Josan12 PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:19
Yes, i understand what Pelicano points out - which is that traditionally in RPG's, AC is intended to represent the 'thickness of armor', and thus the chance that the attack will be deflected. IMO, this works fine and is quite convincing in fantasy medieval RPG's (Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter etc) but i find it a little less convincing when it comes to guns .... a metal breastplate does a great job having a chance of deflecting a sword - but a bullet? Please.
Click to expand...

And it is possible to dodge a bullet fired by a skilled shooter?

-------

My opinion:

Give ranged weapons a bonus against AC (if possible), but increase their range penalty (you'll need MUCH higher skill points to hit a distant target).

Give guns/ammo negative DR values or give melee weapons positive DR values to make them work differently.

However, it is not an easy job to re-balance them.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, weapon proto files do not have values for AC or DR, so this sort of change is not easily done. Maybe something could be scripted but it could be complicated. Ammo already affects DR. Personally I have always wished ranged weapons had an AC modifier and NOT the ammo, also melee weapons to have a DR modifier would be fantastic!
 
So... it would be like possible to make every point of AG give 5 AC so that a char with 10 Agility would have 50 Armor Class?

Then let's say light armors like Cobat Armor would lower your AC by 5 - then you'd have 45 AC with some good resitances. Then add the Dodger perk and you'd be back at 50 AC or 55 if you'd wear something practically weightless like robes, leather.

I already mnetioned this in my previous thread with the armor changes and RL weapon stats - that would have like 3 types of engame armors. Brotherhood/Combat Armor MKII (very light), Tesla (medicore), Power Armor (heavy, walking tank).

One more thing... sneaking in power armor is pretty weird.. at least without the stealth boy... does anyone else get that feeling too?
 
I'm all for AC representing evasion. It's true you can't dodge machine gun fire, and that's where the protection part of the armor comes into play, but that is already handled by DR and DT. AC representing evasion gives a twist to the linear minmaxing that is the current armor situation. The problem with this is that it makes the Kamikaze trait absolutely awful, as the armors' AC modifier would have to be negative.

I've made a much more powerful tool than the mapper for editing protos, in a few hours I can easily AC up all of the game's critters. Here's how I'd do the values:

Base AC = player level * (AG/2 - 1), capped at 50 and no less than 0. This can be done with a global script. This way,
with an AG of 10 you'll reach base AC 50 at level 13,
with an AG of 8-9 you'll reach base AC 50 at level 17,
with an AG of 6-7 you'll reach base AC 50 at level 25,
and with an AG of <6 your AC will be equal to your level.

In addition to this, you'll get AC from perks like Dodger and HtH Evade, making your potential AC very high. I don't know if there is a max, but obviously an AC of 100 is cheating. NPCs don't level, and their base AC would be somethig like their AG*5, still capped at 50.

Armor decreases AC based on size and encumbrance:
Robes: -5 AC
C. L. Jacket, Brotherhood Armor: -10 AC
L. Jacket, Combat Armor 2: -15 AC
L. Armor 2, Combat Armor: -20 AC
L. Armor, Metal Armor 2: -25 AC
Metal Armor: -30 AC
P. Armor, H.P. Armor: -35 AC
APA, APA 2: -40 AC.

So, a ninja character will want to stick with the Combat Leather Jacket until he can raid the BoS in San Fran for some Brotherhood Armor, and will have to stack up on AC perks. A more tough-guy character will have to prepare for always getting hit, and will benefit from Toughness and Lifegiver perks.

Sound good?
 
But if you make AC totally dependable of agility then wouldn't that cause serious balance issues in the early game?
 
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