Bethesda`s odd moral - karma (some spoilers)

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Erny, Nov 8, 2008.

  1. Bowyerte

    Bowyerte First time out of the vault

    50
    Oct 29, 2008
    Yet it makes you a cheater, and lowers your karma as a *player* :wink:.

    I'm not sure it'd make me feel good to manually have to add karma for what the game considers bad but I consider good. Actually, it would be quite the opposite.

    The point is not to kill them or leave them alive. The point is that the game doesn't make sense in its moral judgments of your actions. Part of the fun in doing good (or bad) things is to see how the world reacts to it. If this reaction doesn't make sense, it's not fun at all anymore : it's frustrating.
     
  2. betamonkey

    betamonkey First time out of the vault

    93
    Oct 15, 2008
    So like I said.. someone somewhere has to decide who is good and bad. You could make the case that the Master or the Enclave aren't evil, just misguided in their approach to moving the world forward.. but it's this type of moral ambiguity that is impossible in games. The only other option would be to drop morality entirely and just let the person decide if they were good or bad and the game world just doesn't care.

    I still think you are gravely mistaken about the nature of the Family though. It all made perfect sense to me. They were being hunted because they had uncontrollable urges. That doesn't make them evil. In our world they would get medical and psychiatric help, something that doesn't exist in the wasteland.

    But I do appreciate the irony of people complaining about one of the greyer choices that isn't completely black and white. ;)
     
  3. oihrebwe

    oihrebwe Still Mildly Glowing

    236
    Jul 15, 2008
    shoot them and see if they drop a finger

    [spoiler:11e9c08b06]they do[/spoiler:11e9c08b06]
     
  4. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    579
    Nov 2, 2008
    Okay right now I am absolutly convinced that betamonkey gets payment by bethesda. there is no way a clear thinking human could think "cannibalism for fun" could be in any way good or grey.
     
  5. betamonkey

    betamonkey First time out of the vault

    93
    Oct 15, 2008
    Where did I say "cannibalism for fun"?

    Nice insult though, 1/10 for effort.
     
  6. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    579
    Nov 2, 2008
    You didn't say it, but its the way of the family, so no: this is bugged/bad designchoice and everybody should get karma for killing the family. oh an of course the settlement shouldn't turn hostile, but thats just bad scripting I assume
     
  7. betamonkey

    betamonkey First time out of the vault

    93
    Oct 15, 2008
    Which shows how much you actually just don't get it.. if you have played it at all.

    "Cannibalism for fun" is NOT the way of the family. They hate the way they are, but they cannot help it. The hunger takes over and they do terrible things and people want to kill them for it.

    I do find it funny that for all the crying about "Black hats and white knights, binary Bethesda sucks!" so many seem to be struggling with some of the gray areas.

    Irony is certainly appreciated. ;)
     
  8. Moving Target

    Moving Target Mildly Dipped

    500
    Oct 25, 2007
    How is it a grey area? They're a drain on local resources and are insane to boot. Now, maybe when things calm down a bit societies can talk about justice for the Family or shed a little tear over their sad fate, but at the stage of society in Fallout 3? No cure, no Family. Simple.
     
  9. Kashrlyyk

    Kashrlyyk It Wandered In From the Wastes

    172
    Oct 18, 2004
    Then why aren´t they putting themselves out of their misery or ask me to do it.

    Serial killer and serial rapists have "uncontrollable urges", too. And it does make them evil and in some countries in our world they are killed for it, in others they are put in prison for life.

    Yes, now you realize what is so bad about it! IT IS NOT OUR WORLD!!! There are no prisons and there are not Psychiatrists.
    The way the whole karma stuff is handled and this quest is handled doesn´t fit a postapocalyptic world.
     
  10. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    579
    Nov 2, 2008
    Oh thats what vance ment when he said that he wants them to embrace their way. makes sense..errr not.
    Uh and I have an urge to bomb bethesda headquaters. Can't fight it and I really feel bad about that. Guess you have to recive bad karma if you try to stop me.

    You get it..now? Finallly?

    The whole quest is messed up and even worse than the black/white bethesda thing. its just wrong. and no, thats not grey.
     
  11. Erny

    Erny It Wandered In From the Wastes

    179
    Nov 2, 2008
    I agree that its a gray area. But then it needs no karma punishment for solving it the violent way. Apparently Beth thinks the gray is white.
     
  12. Ninjerk

    Ninjerk First time out of the vault

    54
    Nov 8, 2008
    None of the examples presented (rapists and murderers included) to counter the Family's uncontrollable urges fit the physiological component that I think is present in the Family.

    The actual dilemma in the Family situation is that 1) They cannot stop and 2) There is no cure. Until there is a cure, the issue becomes about survival between opposing groups, and thus karma shouldn't even really factor in (as that manner of survival is more a natural force, I think).
     
  13. Bowyerte

    Bowyerte First time out of the vault

    50
    Oct 29, 2008
    Yet the Family continues to hunt for fresh blood, while they could sustain their "physiological needs" with a few blood packs. Their leader even admits he did drink blood from this kind of supply at some point of his life, but stopped for a reason I can't seem to remember precisely. I think he and his "pack" didn't like the taste, all I remember is that it was quite stupid. Even more stupid, you can convince them to go back to this food supply without too much effort.

    In this situation, the Family deliberately chose to hunt other humans to drink their blood, instead of collaborating with the settlements and manage their needs through other means, which they *knew*. This is not gray, this is evil. Yet killing them and their newest spawn makes *you* evil. Does it make sense to you ? It doesn't to me.
     
  14. ferrety

    ferrety First time out of the vault

    37
    Nov 2, 2008
    No - I wanted to let Ian live. I killed Lance and became an enemy of Arefu. You can not kill anyone in The Family w/o becoming an enemy of Arefu.

    I am speaking from a point when a) you have convinced Ian to go home, but you have not yet made any sort of deal with Lance.

    The point here is that what I feel is a very 'normal' decision - wanting to return Ian to his sister and kill The Family - is not a valid part of Beth's decision tree and results in minor game breaking errors (such as Arefu hating you). Bad coding. Terrible quest.



    You can not dole out 'karma points' and still call it a 'grey area'. Killing someone isn't 'grey' when you get or lose karma points for it - it's very clearly delineated as good or evil.

    And I'm complaining because it's a ridiculous situation. I'm shocked that a bunch of morons claiming they can only drink blood makes 'perfect sense' to you. I submit that any wastelander would eat 300 year old noodles if they found them, and certainly wouldn't wait for a blood meal.

    And more importantly, any group that large that DID wait for blood meals would need to be on constant killing sprees, making them evil.

    And even if they simply slaughtered Brahmin, such as when they killed those of Arefu, in doing so they would have been condemning an entire town to die by destroying their natural resources. Once again, evil.

    It is not a 'grey' moral choice when the only 'good' choice I'm allowed to take is to befriend a bunch of idiots and set them up as protectors of another town. That isn't grey at all, that's clearly the 'good' option in Beth's Fallout 3 based on Karmic distribution.

    Too bad it's not only 'not good', but moronic.

    I realize you aren't responding to me here, and I've definitely 'played' it. Cannibalism 'for fun' IS exactly what they are doing. They dress and act like Vampires! They are cultists, brainwashed by Lance (who even pretty much admits it). They are playing dress up.

    You keep talking about 'the hunger taking over'. Do you realize how stupid this sounds in a post-apocalyptic wasteland? If you met someone who killed people because 'the hunger took over' tomorrow, in real life, would you think them good? I'd hope not, since they are not only bat shit insane, but murderous. The same goes in a wasteland. They don't get a 'get out of jail free' card simply because they live in a wasteland, if anything, there crimes are even more heinous since in such a world the positive efforts of every last individual are very important. Killing some cattle in our world is a crime, sure, but in FO3 they were essentially killing all of Arefu by killing their cattle.
     
  15. TheRatKing

    TheRatKing Vault Dweller

    702
    Oct 7, 2008
    This thread goes to show how much better a reputation system is far better and more realistic than a karma system. If I steal 1000 plates from poor people, but NO ONE sees me, why do people hate me? If I bomb an entire settlement, leaving NO witnesses, how will people know that I did it?
     
  16. Erny

    Erny It Wandered In From the Wastes

    179
    Nov 2, 2008
    Mr Burke would spread the word :)

    Fo2 way of having both reputation and Karma was a good system and worked rather well, but Beth cant even get karma right. sigh
     
  17. Erny

    Erny It Wandered In From the Wastes

    179
    Nov 2, 2008
    just for a test: killed half Megaton, become evil, went away. When I returened everyone still treated me the same even the 'relatives' of the people I killed (Stahl). Then I donated like 500 to the cultists and Im good again! Whith the corpses of my victims still lying everywhere.

    this is dumb ;/

    anyone tried to play very evil - is there much change in the game, except different bounty hunters on you and different NPCs joining you? or in this game aligment is even more as shallow and meaningless than Fable`s?
     
  18. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    91
    Oct 29, 2008


    I belive karma should have been split in good bar, bad bar and neutral/grey bar both for player and NPC communities.
    So the family alive = neutral/grey karma points for PC and maybe bad and neutral karma points from the community.
     
  19. Limbabnees

    Limbabnees Still Mildly Glowing

    243
    Jun 17, 2007
    Jericho didnt even want to join me because of my Good Karma. Didnt do anything yet :D
     
  20. betamonkey

    betamonkey First time out of the vault

    93
    Oct 15, 2008
    Vance is brainwashing them so he can keep them in line.. keep them from running off and eating people. He is trying to help them, albeit in a misguided way. But in a world that is shoot or be shot there isn't much choice. Vance is a good guy, like it or not. He may have some screws loose but he isn't a psychopath, he isn't a cold-blooded murderer and he isn't a thief. He wants to live and to help people like him live and if he can do it without harming any 'innocents' then he is more than willing to do so.

    Calling him evil just shows you don't understand him at all.

    Seriously, it's not about not liking the idea, or the story or whatever.. but it's not that hard to grasp. At least not for me. Not sure why people would struggle to understand this. It's not a clear cut good/evil like you want it to be and it confuses you?