Bush vs Amnesty

welsh

Junkmaster
Yet someone else has been critical of Bush. Not the Taliban or those crazy muslim fundamentalists? No- this time it's Amnesty.

What? Gitmo = Gulag? Say it isn't so George?

But hey, you can't practice torture and be a beacon of human rights, no matter how much you think God loves ya.

Amnesty Defends 'Gulag,' Urges Guantánamo Access
Reuters

Thursday 02 June 2005

Human rights group Amnesty defended its description of Guantánamo prison as a "gulag" Thursday and urged the United States to allow independent investigations of allegations of torture at its detention centers for terrorism suspects.

Yes, didn't the NY Times do a bit on torture in Iraq recently?
[qutoe]
A verbal feud between Amnesty International and Washington has escalated since Amnesty last week compared the prison at the US naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, to the brutal Soviet system of forced labor camps where millions of prisoners died.

President Bush dismissed as "absurd" the Amnesty report, which also said the United States was responsible for an upsurge in global human rights violations, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld called the description "reprehensible." [/quote]

Of course not- because Bush thinks America can do no wrong.

"The administration's response has been that our report is absurd, that our allegations have no basis, and our answer is very simple: if that is so, open up these detention centers, allow us and others to visit them," Amnesty International Secretary General Irene Zubaida Khan told a news conference.

"Transparency is the best antidote to misinformation and incorrect facts," said Khan, who is here to meet with Japanese officials.

Transparency? that hallmark of responsible governance and democracy? Not this administration

The United States holds about 520 men at Guantánamo, where they are denied rights accorded under international law to prisoners of war.

Many have been held without charge for more than three years.

Khan rejected a suggestion that Amnesty's use of the emotive term "gulag" had turned the debate into one over semantics, and distracted attention from the situation in the detention centers.

Why are the republicans such pussies when someone calls them a dirty word?

"What we wanted to do was to send a strong message that ... this sort of network of detention centers that has been created as part of this war on terrorism is actually undermining human rights in a dramatic way which can only evoke some of the worst features of human rights scandals of the past," she said.

"I don't think people have got off the hook yet."

Khan also said Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council meant Tokyo should play a bigger role in the global fight for human rights and improve its own record at home.

Japan has stepped up its campaign for a permanent seat as part of an effort to boost its global clout in security affairs.

"Japan, by its strong bid to become a UN Security Council member, is subjecting itself to greater international scrutiny and that creates an imperative for change," she said.

Khan urged Japan to abolish the death penalty, improve the treatment of prisoners, revise a strict stance toward refugees - only 15 refugees were accepted last year - and do more to prevent and protect victims of human trafficking.

Before Japan should think about the Security Council it should get its political and economic house in order.
 
Amnesty is now a joke. I'll believe it when I hear reports of millions dying there, or of liberal jackasses being sent there, as the men and woman who where sent to Gulags tended to not just be religious fanatics bent on the end of destruction but moral people who recoginzed the Soviet regiem as something unholy.

EDIT: This is from The New Republic, the only sane media outlet left to the left.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w050531&s=bosco060305

GULAG V. GITMO
Equivalency Test
by David Bosco
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Only at TNR Online | Post date 06.03.05 Email this article. E-mail this article

In a recent report, Amnesty International referred to the U.S. detention center at Guantánamo as "the gulag of our time." The term--a Russian abbreviation for Glavnoe Upravlenie Lagerei, or Main Camp Administration--refers to the network of Soviet labor camps established during Stalin's rule that continued, in a different form, for much of the Soviet Union's history. During a press conference on Tuesday, President Bush rejected the charge as "absurd." Amnesty has defended its use of the term. Below, a comparison of the two prison systems, with the aid of Anne Applebaum's Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Gulag: A History.

Individuals Detained:

Gulag: Approximately 20 million passed through the Gulag. The population at any one time was generally around two million.

Guantánamo: 750 prisoners have passed through the camp. The current population is about 520.

Number of Camps:

Gulag: 476 separate camp complexes comprising thousands of individual camps. By the end of the 1930s, camps were located in each of the Soviet Union's twelve time zones.

Guantánamo: Five small camps on the U.S. military base in Cuba.

Reasons for Imprisonment:

Gulag: Opposition to the Soviet regime's forced collectivization, including efforts to hide grain in cellars; owning too many cows; need for slave labor to complete massive industrialization and mining projects; political opposition to the Soviet system; being Jewish; being Finnish; being religious; being middle class; being in need of reeducation; having had contact with foreigners; refusing to sleep with the head of Soviet counterintelligence; telling a joke about Stalin.

Guantánamo: Fighting for the fundamentalist Taliban in Afghanistan; being suspected of links to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

Judicial Review:

Gulag: None. "Trials" of those sent to the Gulag often lasted only a few minutes.

Guantánamo: The Bush administration has argued that detainees are unlawful combatants, not prisoners of war. The Supreme Court ruled in June 2004 that prisoners must receive hearings on their legal status. One hundred and fifty have decided to challenge their detention, and dozens of lawyers have been arriving at the base to represent them. Human rights groups and lawyers for detainees have argued that the military hearings are inadequate.

Red Cross Visits:

Gulag: None that I could find.

Guantánamo: Regular visits since January 2002. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has reportedly complained to the U.S. government about several aspects of prisoner treatment, including occasional beatings and other interrogation tactics. Per its standard practice, the ICRC does not make its complaints public.

Deaths as a Result of Poor Treatment:

Gulag: At least two to three million. Mass burials were often employed to keep death rates secret (camp commanders sometimes received permission to remove gold fillings before burial). In some particularly brutal periods, camp commanders simply executed thousands of prisoners. But deaths due to overwork were much more common. It is estimated that 25,000 gulag laborers died during the construction of the White Sea Canal in the early '30s. One convoy of "backward elements" destined for the Gulag in 1933 included about 6,000 prisoners; after three months, 4,000 were dead. "The survivors had lived because they ate the flesh of those who had died," according to an account cited by Applebaum.

Guantánamo: No reports of prisoner deaths.

Typical Treatment:

Gulag: For the most part, Gulag prisoners provided labor for the Soviet system. Treatment varied widely, but most prisoners lived in overcrowded barracks, and prisoners occasionally killed one another in an effort to find space to sleep. Deadly dysentery and typhus outbreaks were common. Prisoners often had inadequate clothing to protect themselves from the elements, and most camps lacked running water and heat.

Guantánamo: A recent Time magazine report found that "the best-behaved detainees are held in Camp 4, a medium-security, communal-living environment with as many as 10 beds in a room; prisoners can play soccer or volleyball outside up to nine hours a day, eat meals together and read Agatha Christie mysteries in Arabic. Less cooperative detainees typically live and eat in small, individual cells and get to exercise and shower only twice a week." Human Rights Watch and other watchdog groups have collected firsthand testimony from prisoners alleging abuses, including the use of dogs, extended solitary confinement, sexual humiliation, and "stress positions." An official investigation uncovered only minor abuses, and most detainee accusations have not been verified.

Religious Observance:

Gulag: Prisoners were occasionally able to smuggle bibles into the camps and hold religious observances, including Christmas and Easter, in secret. Being caught conducting services, however, could be grounds for further punishment. Applebaum records a prisoner's description of a priest creeping through a camp, trying to say mass without being detected.

Guantánamo: Prisoners are provided copies of the Koran and daily time for prayer. Arrows on the floor of each cell point to Mecca. Meals are made in accordance with Muslim religious restrictions. Several prisoners, however, reported delays in receiving their copies of the Koran and that guards mistreated the Koran on multiple occasions. For its part, the Pentagon has documented five instances of Koran mishandling though it denies that a Koran was ever flushed down the toilet, as one detainee alleged.


The detention center at Guantánamo is legally dubious and has been a public relations disaster for the United States. The treatment of certain prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan has been far worse. Amnesty's president Irene Kahn says that these practices are "undermining human rights in a dramatic way." Her outrage is valuable and essential. If only she could express it without employing obscene moral parallels.
 
This whole thing is just another giant shitstorm in a series of shitstorms that further my disenchantment.

While yes, it is ridiculous for Amnesty International to claim Guantanamo as "The Gulag of our Times" when it isn't even a Gulag, that doesn't mean that they're wrong to criticize camp conditions.

While sensationalizing a report does make one question Amnesty's objectivity, that doesn't mean that their report is wrong.

Hate. Me hate. SO MUCH
 
Amnesty is full of totally sick people. Totally sick.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/17/AR2005061701218.html

No American 'Gulag'

By Pavel Litvinov

Saturday, June 18, 2005; Page A19

Several days ago I received a telephone call from an old friend who is a longtime Amnesty International staffer. He asked me whether I, as a former Soviet "prisoner of conscience" adopted by Amnesty, would support the statement by Amnesty's executive director, Irene Khan, that the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba is the "gulag of our time."

"Don't you think that there's an enormous difference?" I asked him.

"Sure," he said, "but after all, it attracts attention to the problem of Guantanamo detainees."

The word "gulag" was a bureaucratic acronym for the main prison administration in Stalin's Soviet Union. After publication of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipelago," it became a symbol for the system of forced-labor camps that have been an integral feature of communist countries. Millions of prisoners confined in the gulag had not been involved in violence or committed any crime -- they were there because they belonged to a "wrong" social, national or political group or expressed a "wrong" opinion.

The cruelty and scale of the gulag system are described in numerous books, so there is no need to recount them here. By any standard, Guantanamo and similar American-run prisons elsewhere do not resemble, in their conditions of detention or their scale, the concentration camp system that was at the core of a totalitarian communist system.

For example, incidents of desecration of the Koran in Guantanamo by U.S. personnel have been widely reported. But those Korans were surely not brought to Guantanamo by the prisoners themselves from Afghanistan. They were supplied by the U.S. administration -- in spite of the obvious fact that most of the prisoners misguidedly found in the Koran the inspiration for their violent hatred of the United States.

By contrast, Russian author Andrei Sinyavsky, who was sentenced in 1966 to seven years' forced labor for his writing, was approached one evening soon after his arrival in a labor camp by a prisoner who quietly asked Sinyavsky whether he wanted to listen to a recital of the biblical account of the apocalypse. (Possession of a Bible was strictly prohibited in the gulag.) The man took Sinyavsky to the furnace room, where a group of people were squatting in the dark recesses. In the light of the furnace flame, one of the men got up and started to recite the biblical passages by heart. When he stopped, the stoker, an old man, said: "And now you, Fyodor, continue." Fyodor got up and recited from the next chapter. The whole text of the Bible was distributed among these prisoners, ordinary Russians who were spending 10 to 25 years in the gulag for their religious beliefs. They knew the texts by heart and met regularly to repeat them so that they would not forget. And this happened in 1967, when the gulag had become smaller and the Soviet regime milder than it had been under Stalin.

Amnesty International, with its fact-based, objective and balanced approach to the defense of human rights, has been a source of hope for dissidents everywhere. A central idea of Amnesty has been the concept of prisoner of conscience as a person who neither uses nor advocates political violence. Just to know that you have been adopted as a prisoner of conscience, that somewhere in the world there are people who know your name and are working for your release, gives a prisoner hope.

When I arrived in the United States after serving my term in Siberian exile, I met hundreds of dedicated Amnesty activists throughout the country who wrote letters to leaders of world governments demanding the release of prisoners of conscience. This activity created a special solidarity of human rights activists across national borders. Naturally, communist leaders denounced Amnesty as a CIA front, and right-wing dictators dismissed its members as communist plotters.

It was only natural that Amnesty flourished in the United States and in Western Europe, where human rights are taken seriously and their defense became an official part of U.S. foreign policy, largely due to the efforts of President Jimmy Carter. There were heroic attempts to create Amnesty groups in countries with dictatorial regimes, including the Soviet Union, but most of those attempts were crushed by arrests and forced emigration.

There is ample reason for Amnesty to be critical of certain U.S. actions. But by using hyperbole and muddling the difference between repressive regimes and the imperfections of democracy, Amnesty's spokesmen put its authority at risk. U.S. human rights violations seem almost trifling in comparison with those committed by Cuba, North Korea, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.

The most effective way to criticize U.S. behavior is to frankly acknowledge that this country should be held to a higher standard based on its own Constitution, laws and traditions. We cannot fulfill our responsibilities as the world's only superpower without being perceived as a moral authority. Despite the risks posed by terrorism, the United States cannot indefinitely detain people considered dangerous without appropriate safeguards for their conditions of detention and periodic review of their status.

Words are important. When Amnesty spokesmen use the word "gulag" to describe U.S. human rights violations, they allow the Bush administration to dismiss justified criticism and undermine Amnesty's credibility. Amnesty International is too valuable to let it be hijacked by politically biased leaders.

The writer, who was a dissident active in human rights causes in the Soviet Union, now lives in the United States.
 
I'll agree with both Amnesty for calling out the bad treatment of the detainees at Gitmo and Bush for calling out Amnesty for their bullshit analogy. I've read all three volumes of the Gulag Archipelago (fantastic books, btw) and, like the former prisoner, I agree that the comparison is not vaild in the slightest. But, that doesn't mean that Gitmo isn't acting outside of the law and that people's freedoms (however heinous the crimes committed by those people) aren't being compromised. Personally, I don't give a ahit about the rights of the detainees, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve them. It's out of my hands, really. The constitution and the geneva conventions cover all that.

At least those imprisoned at Gitmo were caught as terrorists and as people that most likely participated in terrorist attacks all over the world. The victims of the Gulag were largely political prisoners and ordinary people. Solzhsnitsyn got eleven years for a letter to a friend where he caricatured Stalin.
 
Pajari-

I think a lot of this is distraction- you call something a Gulag and everyone wants to define it the way they want.

Is it legal? Is it outside the law? Do the people there get sufficient legal protection. At least Congress is looking at this again.

But here's the snub- the people there are accused terrorists which the defense department says was captured during wartime and thus should be treated differently than normal prisoner-

So do they get protection under the Geneva Convention as prisoners of war?

or do they get treated as criminals and so get legal protections as prisoners?

Or do they fall in somewhere in between?

The government should at least make a choice about these distinctions.
 
It's a gray area, I'll agree. It appears that the distinction was made that these guys were enemy prisoners of war instead of common criminals, but even that distinction is subject to serious question.

The only certainty seems to be that these guys are scumbags :/.
 
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