China and the United States-

welsh

Junkmaster
Ok, so I am reading the Economist today.

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The US seems to be having problems with China over North Korea and Taiwan. The protest of the US against the Europeans for possibily lifting the arms ebargo is perhaps a symptom of that.

Is it time for the US to reappraise it's relationship with China and maybe get tougher?

Your thoughts?

A relationship reconsidered

Mar 23rd 2005 | BEIJING, SEOUL AND TOKYO
From The Economist print edition
But the problems of North Korea and Taiwan still rankle

“CHINA”, wrote Condoleezza Rice when George Bush was first running for the American presidency, “resents the role of the United States in the Asia-Pacific region”. During a visit to China as part of an Asian tour in her new role as secretary of state, she diplomatically avoided such bluntness, remarking instead that America and China shared common interests in regional and global stability. But on two of the region's paramount security issues, North Korea and Taiwan, Ms Rice did not find the Chinese all that helpful.

She made clear that America was growing impatient with the lack of progress in the Chinese-hosted six-way dialogue on North Korea's nuclear programme that also includes South Korea, Japan and Russia. On March 21st, at the end of her six-nation trip, she told reporters in Beijing that America remained “committed” to the talks, even though North Korea is now refusing to participate. But she also said that if North Korea remained obdurate, “we will have to look at other options”.


What might these be? Cracking down harder on North Korea's trade in weapons, drugs and counterfeit dollars would be one possibility. Taking the problem back to the United Nations Security Council might be another. To America's undoubted annoyance, China's leaders showed no obvious sign of willingness to step up pressure on the North to re-enter the talks, let alone make concessions.

America has not made clear quite how it would like China to lean on North Korea. China provides vital food and energy supplies, but is opposed to the imposition of economic sanctions on its communist neighbour and notional ally. It is worried that such measures could destabilise the impoverished country in ways that could threaten China.

Adam Ward of the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London says America has no real expectations that China will impose sanctions at this stage or agree to put the issue to the Security Council. But he argues that the Americans would at least like China to signal to North Korea that it might be willing to adopt a tougher policy and that North Korea's claimed (though not yet proven) possession of nuclear weapons is an issue that also affects China's security.

Some Chinese officials may indeed want to be more co-operative with the Americans, not least because North Korea's nuclear programme gives the United States an excuse to maintain a strong security presence in East Asia and Japan an excuse to bolster its armed forces. But others worry that undermining the North Korean regime could allow America to dictate the terms of eventual reunification of the peninsula and deprive China of a strategic buffer against American forces.

The Russians show no interest in pressuring North Korea either, and even South Korea is at times disturbed by American rhetoric. During her swing through the region, Ms Rice was at pains to reassure all involved that America respected North Korea's sovereignty. She insisted that America has no plans to attack or invade the country. Such remarks were well received in South Korea, where there had been fears of escalating tension between America and North Korea following Ms Rice's description of the north as an “outpost of tyranny” in January. She repeated American offers of economic assistance as part of a settlement of the nuclear issue.

On China's relations with Taiwan, Ms Rice said China's adoption last week of an anti-secession law, which threatens the use of “non-peaceful means” against the island should it assert its independence was “not a welcome development”. She was considerably blunter in her criticism of the European Union for considering lifting the embargo on the sale of weapons to China it imposed in response to the crushing of the Tiananmen Square protests in 1989. More than once, she warned the Europeans not to do anything that would alter the balance of power in Asia. “It is the United States—not Europe—that has defended the Pacific,” she said.

The Europeans at least may be paying heed. On March 20th, Britain's foreign secretary, Jack Straw, said political problems relating to the embargo's lifting had become “more difficult” as a result of lack of progress by China on human-rights issues as well as the passing of the anti-secession bill. Recently, European Union officials had suggested that the embargo could be scrapped by the middle of the year, albeit with the introduction of restrictions on the sale of weapons to China.

Yet for all their differences, the Americans and Chinese both appeared keen not to let human rights get in the way of their discussions. Shortly before Ms Rice's visit, China freed a prominent political prisoner, Rebiya Kadeer. Ms Kadeer, a businesswoman from the western province of Xinjiang, was arrested in 1999 while on her way to meet an American congressional delegation. She was accused of harming national security. In apparent response to her release, America said it would not seek to censure China during this year's meeting in Geneva of the UN Commission on Human Rights, which began last week. Notwithstanding Mr Straw's concerns, Ms Rice said in Beijing that there had been “some progress” on human rights in China in recent months.

Ms Rice's eagerness not to ruffle feathers in China was also evident in Tokyo, where she was asked to explain her description of China as a “strategic competitor” before she joined the Bush administration. It shows, she said, that you should not write an article and then go into government: “People might actually read it.”
 
My history class (Far Eastern History) in Rutgers is taught by a Chinese history professor who was born in China and goes on lecture tours in China every few years.

He says (and cites people on his ideas) that China is so intertwined with the US, that nothing can really change. China has millions of dollars trade surplus with the US, and they used all that money to buy bonds over the years. If anything ever happened, China could sell all those bonds and the US economy would crumble.

The US depends on China as much as China depends on the US for economy and such. And at the end of this year, the limits on how much China can import into the US end... so there's going to be be an increase of 300%.

Also, China has been building cars for all the major companies (Which is every car manufacturing country combined) for years, and they are working on building a car that combines all the best qualities of each into one. And they are going to sell it in the US at such a cheap price, no one will compete if it works.

We'll see if any of this will happen...
 
That's a good point Maddog (you say you study history?), besides, China's a tough nut to crack, even for the Union.

Welsh, you seem to like to keep yourself very up to date with the news... that's really a nice thing, you can't find a lot of people like that (well I'm not talking of NMA, of course), but trust me about one thing, impartiality and truth are not considered mandatory in the information industry. Just look at Italy, we don't have any free national tv anymore! Most newspapers here are party-related, and people is generally careless. Sorry, I'm rambling again.
 
Maddog- interesting to note that there was a similar argument about how economies were intermingled in Europe so that war was both unfeasible and impossible.

Then came World War 1.

In fact trade might be a reason why war would be declared. Right now the US and China don't really compete because we trade different types of goods. But as the Chinese economy grows and manufactures more developed products, competition will be more likely.
 
uziel said:
American arrogance. I still wish I was born Canadian.

I could not have said it better myself. lol But as the Canadian immigration bored will tell Americans... You are best off staying and fighting.
 
Because Canada sucks.

Then came World War 1.

You know, I was thinking about this tonight after my evening class, and I drew a possible parallel between Kaiser Wilhelm and American/Chinese interests.

Part of the reason the Kaiser honored his treaty with the Austro-Hungarians was because he assumed that France and Germany would stay out of an Eastern European conflict. The same could be possible with a Chinese power play.

American interests in Southeast Asia is in the interest of wealth. Our diplomacy in the region is focused on encouraging democratic and capitalist reform for the sake of smoother trade.

China, on the other hand, is concerned with keeping a buffer against American force and protecting the ruling elite. To that end, China may take a shot at Taiwan, assuming that America would stay out of it in light of any economic or humanitarian reforms in the mainland.

Maybe its just dumb, but its something to consider.
 
I'll buy that when it happens. It seems like they are in a very tight spot here. Either way they lose... Their situation seems to be a total stalemate. The physical invasion itself would be very costly. The weapon to person ratio in Taiwan is more so than the average NRA member in the USA. The grotesque amount of defenses implemented there is so staggering for me to comprehend, I really hope no one has to see that much blood there.
 
I actually read the same thing (about the economical dependancy between the USA and China) in a semi-political magazine.
The essence of the article was that the USA could destroy China's economy by ceasing all business relationships, but then the USA would take as much of a hit as China would, et vice versa.

I haven't paid much attention to the economical relationships between those two countries but for what I know the USA has been living over its limits for ages and was only able to do so because half the world is feeding its economy.

Given the economical strength of China, I would consider the impact of such an event quite severe, although I'd refrain from using the term "fatal" (that does seem a bit exaggerated).


I have to say one has to take statistics regarding the growth rate and future growth of China with a bucket of salt, tho. Every good mathematician (although apparently not neccessarily also every good businessman) knows that infinite growth is an absurd expectation to base a statistic on.
Eventually the growth rate will decrease and the boom will turn into a mere humming. If post-war Germany had kept its 1950s' growth rate, half the world would be owned by Germans now. As everyone (minus a few paranoid fanatics, I fear) should know, that isn't so and Germany is currently facing a regression (although partially caused by political mismanagement).
 
Ashmo- I agree that the one should predict that China's growth will continue at the pace it has. That said, it has been high for a damn long time. Even if we can expect it to eventually stop, the real question is "when?" I suspect we will continue to see Chinese growth for the next 10 years.

As for the Taiwan issue - this could be distraction by war. It's an old idea- you distract your people from what's going on at home by going to war abroad. In this way you might be able to more easily redress your difficulties.

SO if the masses who are getting screwed are voicing their resentment and demands for economic redistribution with more vigor, this Chinese ruling elites might decide to go for war.

And Bradylama - I think your theory that France and Germany would stay out of a conflict in Bosnia prior to World War 1, isn't exactly right.

Military strategy is often based on "worst case scenario" rather than "most likely" case scenarios.

German war plans were always based on a two front war- the quick destruction of France through an invasion of Belgium and then a longer war with Russia. The von Schlieffen plan was basically the core military doctrine prior to World War 1. Part of this had to do with times for mobilization- the Russians were slower and therefore the Germans thought they could take out France. But note that the invasion plan involved a strike into Belgium, which meant the British would probably be dragged into the war as well.

As it turned out the invasion of France was almost a success. The French had to enlist the Parisian cabbies to shuttle their soldiers to stop Germany's advance on France in the Miracle of the Marne.

Also, while we tend to think of the 1914 crisis as the cause of the war, one should be careful not to forget the Balkans crises of earlier that century. On I think three seperate occassions the Germans told the Austrians not to go to war or push their grievances. When the Germans finally let up they did so for other reasons.

You may wish to read Dale Copeland's Origins of Major Wars. Copeland spends a lot of time with documentary research of the period. His argument is basically that the Germans told the Austrians to start the war knowing that the War would escalate and bring in the Russians. The reason was that the Germans believed the time was most appropriate to defeat France and Russia before Germany was overwhelmed by her neighbors.
 
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