cRPGs / mMORPGs - game engines

[zenbitz]

So, I am about 5 years behind the times in PC games, although I have been playing PC games since long before Windows, even before PCs.

I also used to play PnP RPGs - and I always hated all the dumb "DND" concepts that pervaded them... character classes, levels, even "hit points". WTF is a hit point? Why do I get 50 "experience points" (whatever those are) for killing my 114th giant ant with a single shot?

I have recently discovered the FO series, and it has rekindled my interest in these games (the last cRPG I finished was Utlima... IV. I couldn't finish Ultima Underworld).

My question to this forum is the following: Ignoring the obvious like "writing" "quests" "graphics" "setting", what do you like or dislike about cRPGs (including online multiplayer) systems? By system - I mean "rules" set, for example FO1/2 use SPECIAL. Is SPECIAl good? Why? Does it even matter? (there is a theme among older, more experienced PnP RPG gamers that the rules are totally irrelevant to a good RPG experience)

Or just open game system bitching... that would be interesting too.

 

[jero cvmi]

Not a huge cRPG player myself, (mostly fallout and planescape:torment, and a couple others that dont exactly qualify as RPGs such as diablo), had my share of pen and paper DnD, i'll try to answer your question:

Every gaming system is a abstraction of how an imaginary world would work. The level of abstraction is limited by the player's capability and willingness to handle realism.

For example, HP is a representation of how far one is from dieing, which an easily conceived abstraction and IMO works just fine. A system without HP, where for example you die with one bullet, could still be fine, i'd play it. it all depends on the kind of experience you expect from a game.

Personally i think SPECIAL is awesome, literally.
It is a very simple and well-thought system that enables many different playing styles, and manages to simulate in a very, very abstract, but plausible way, most of the things you'll try to do in the game.

for example:
not enough IN --> retarded dialogue, plausible.
not enough ST --> you can't carry a lot of stuff, plausible.
not enough LK --> you break your gun/shoot your foot all the time, plausible.
and the list of things you might try to do in the game continues with sneaking, science, sex, brawling, drugs, etc. etc.
It's pretty amazing how many behaviors and situations these guys managed to represent believably and in a balanced manner, and all in little more than a couple of numbers.

As for the "does it even matter" part of the question, yea i guess when you're playing with real people the system doesn't matter that much.
But when you're playing against a machine, all you have is the system; the PC can't use it's imagination to make your experience better, all it can do is follow a predifined set of rules, so i think they better be effective.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Well, the way I see it, what rule set you pick specifically - whether you adapt one or create your own - does not matter so much. What matters is that the rules are consistent, balanced, logical and fit the setting. Balance is pretty much the most important thing, it can make an RPG diverse, replayable and fun.

Oh, and unlike in FO3, your stats need to matter.

As for MMO, it's not the rules that more or less kill most of them for me - it's the amount of grinding that you need to go through in order to effectively participate in fun stuff - e.g. PvP, clan wars etc.

 

[zenbitz]

The level of abstraction is limited by the player's capability and willingness to handle realism.

I don't think I agree with this in a cRPG. The _computer_ has to handle all the details. You should basically be using the <strikethrough>game pad</strikethough> mouse n' keyboard to give your PC "commands".

But maybe I am conflating "realism" and "detail". I think, generally, players are going to be happy with more detail (as long as they don't have to do bookkeeping, and the results seem good), but realism is a different sort of experience.

The hit point example is interesting... it's not an abstraction of any reality - it's simply a mechanism that follows (talking old pre-D&D days) from creating weapons that do more or less damage (1d8 vs. 1d6) and character classes that were better or worse at fighting. This leads to silly inconsistancies that a 10th level fighter (with say, 70 HPs) can fall off of a 30 story tower and remain conscious.

Also, these early games had no hit locations either. Well, I guess it is an abstraction... just a very poor one. Ironically, hit points probably IS a good abstraction for attacking/breaking inanimate objects!

 

[zenbitz]

Personally i think SPECIAL is awesome, literally.
It is a very simple and well-thought system that enables many different playing styles, and manages to simulate in a very, very abstract, but plausible way, most of the things you'll try to do in the game.

Well, it's pretty OK, I'll give it that. I do like the way Charisma actually matters in the game, and the fact that IN effects dialog is cute. ST/EN/AG I give them a pass, since those are obvious. Except of course you and your NPCs can carry a ridiculous amount of stuff. And armor is the same encumberance whether or not it's worn (except ST boosting power armor)

Luck is probably unnecessary, but I don't have a problem with allowing people to make lucky or unlucky characters.

Some things I think don't work:
the "Science" skill. Uh, depth please. Repair is also a little "Lego Star Wars-y" you fix everything with the multi-tool; and you have equal knowledge of all mechanical and electronic devices (even in FO2 where you are a tribal).

You can play the whole game without ever clicking the "traps" skill - traps simply don't do enough damage and there is almost no reason to ever set one.

Speech and Barter (passive) skills seem to work OK.
The combat system is goofy - but par for the course I would say. Tricky to write an interesting combat system that is totally turn based. It seems like they made allowances to "balance" the combat system, but it's totally unbalanced anyway (mostly due to economics).

First aid is basically never used, stimpaks are practically lying around by the time you get rolling in the game (5th lvl?). Only reason I spent points on Doctor skill is because Pers walkthrough told me I needed 75% to learn about implants.

So, in summary, I think SPECIAL is a usable if flawed system. If it ranks highly among cRPGs, that just means the others suck.

 

[Danilh]

You can use it for PnP
http://pnp.fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

I just love the combat! Specially in the "Help Irwin" quest in FO1.

 

[jero cvmi]

About the HP thing, I aggree it's a (too)heavy abstraction, and I would play a game with an entirely different system, but it kind of works for me as it is. And you can have insta-kills when falling off buildings, as is the case with most games.

Except of course you and your NPCs can carry a ridiculous amount of stuff. And armor is the same encumberance whether or not it's worn (except ST boosting power armor)

I agree, this is a flaw of SPECIAL: they should at least take volume of items into account as well as weight. That way the inventory management would be more realistic. I prefer slot-based inventories myself.

Luck is probably unnecessary, but I don't have a problem with allowing people to make lucky or unlucky characters.

no it isnt; it affects *all* dice rolls. and since the game is heavily based on randomness, well it makes sense to differentiate characters by luck.

Some things I think don't work:
the "Science" skill. Uh, depth please.

that one could be more detailed, but since it does open up a great deal of science (and Science!) related dialogue and plot, i think it does work. a lot.

Repair is also a little "Lego Star Wars-y" you fix everything with the multi-tool; and you have equal knowledge of all mechanical and electronic devices (even in FO2 where you are a tribal).

this lacks on detail even more; i aggree with you.

You can play the whole game without ever clicking the "traps" skill - traps simply don't do enough damage and there is almost no reason to ever set one.

It is true that most traps dont kill the average character; however i used it a lot on locked safes etc. because the character isn't supposed to know that.
There could have been more traps you could set i suppose.

Speech and Barter (passive) skills seem to work OK.

Speech looks perfect; Barter is kinda buggy since it doesn't work on all merchants, but the concept of it is better than what i've seen in other games.

The combat system is goofy - but par for the course I would say. Tricky to write an interesting combat system that is totally turn based. It seems like they made allowances to "balance" the combat system, but it's totally unbalanced anyway (mostly due to economics).

Hmm... never written one. I suppose you have a point. But it fits the setting to get your ass kicked in the beginning, and have the odds change drastically later (if that is what you mean unbalanced), since bullets and drugs are *supposed* to be scarce in post-apocalyptia.

First aid is basically never used, stimpaks are practically lying around by the time you get rolling in the game (5th lvl?). Only reason I spent points on Doctor skill is because Pers walkthrough told me I needed 75% to learn about implants.

At first that's what i thought too, but at some point i decided to actually roleplay a doctor, (since you aren't supposed to learn about implants if you aren't one) and it was a quite fun experience. Extra dialogue lines aside, healing self and others can be a reasonable amount of the game.
Stimpacks aren't lying around if you don't have enough LK, and
crippled limbs don't heal with stimpacks.

So, in summary, I think SPECIAL is a usable if flawed system. If it ranks highly among cRPGs, that just means the others suck.

I think it wasn't implemented to it's full capabilities in fallout 1 & 2.
Many of the things it allowes for, were implemented in one or two points in the game.
But i still think its design concepts were brilliant.
As for other systems in cRPGs, yeah the ones i've seen suck pretty much, except the ones that were carried over from pen and paper games, such as DnD and Vampire. But there are more experienced people here to talk about that.