John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
One of the greatest direcotors of all time ruined by Leftist pigs, still yearing for the days of Stalinisim.
Anyone agree?
Anyone agree?
Elia Kazanjoglous
- Thread starter John Uskglass
- Start date
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Um. Can we have the whole story or at least a link?
- who was Elia Kazanjoglous?
- who were the "leftist pigs yearing for stalinism"?
- how did they ruin him?
- who was Elia Kazanjoglous?
- who were the "leftist pigs yearing for stalinism"?
- how did they ruin him?
linkorstfu
King of Creation
Vault Fossil
What the hell is a "direcotor"?
I think we are supposed to search the internet for ourselves to figure out what CCR is talking about. But that is his way...
Maybe a little background would help CCR?
Basic Writing Tips
Maybe a little background would help CCR?
Basic Writing Tips
welsh
Junkmaster
Agreed. CC, little info?
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
King of Creation
Vault Fossil
Ok, it makes more sense now.
Sure, he was a great director, but how was he ruined by "leftist pigs"? If he was ruined, then how come he won those Academy Awards?
Sure, he was a great director, but how was he ruined by "leftist pigs"? If he was ruined, then how come he won those Academy Awards?
Usually in a discussion, when you make an assertion you back it up with some key points? A link is not a key point. C'mon CCR, explain yourself. I know you must have had some classes on writing or speech.
I did think On The Waterfront was a great film but haven't seen too many of his other films. I coulda been a contender...
I did think On The Waterfront was a great film but haven't seen too many of his other films. I coulda been a contender...
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Aye, true enough. I just thought that with the new avatar and all it would have been kind of obvious.
Elias Kazan (gasp, HORROR OF HORRORS, KILL HIM), named names during the 50s. That is why shitheads like Tim Robbins and Sean Penn booed him off the stage in his last years.
Hmm, no I did not know that and although I have heard of him I did not know what he looked like. Don't always assume everyone has the same knowledge about certain things that you do. I'm sure I could spout the names of artists extremely familiar to me who you have never heard of.
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Entirely true. I just expected Kharn to post on the topic.JJ86 said:
welsh
Junkmaster
CC- if you want to post to Kharn, pm Kharn. If you want to post to everyone, post to everyone.
But thanks for the info- and yes makes more sense-
Loved On the Waterfront. Probably Brando's best as is Street Car Named Desire. Viva Zapata is a lot of fun- also one of the great politics films.
Saw Spendor in the Grass a long time ago and East of Eden, but can't remember the Last Tycoon.
As for being booed off the stage- well considering how many people got black listed because of the 50s Red Scare, perhaps he should have avoided helping out the House Un-American Activities Committee. As was said in Seinfeld- "You don't name names!"
Complaining about too much liberalism in Hollywood, or calling a person a communist in Hollywood in the 40s-50s, was like criticizing San Francisco because there are too many gays.
But thanks for the info- and yes makes more sense-
Loved On the Waterfront. Probably Brando's best as is Street Car Named Desire. Viva Zapata is a lot of fun- also one of the great politics films.
Saw Spendor in the Grass a long time ago and East of Eden, but can't remember the Last Tycoon.
As for being booed off the stage- well considering how many people got black listed because of the 50s Red Scare, perhaps he should have avoided helping out the House Un-American Activities Committee. As was said in Seinfeld- "You don't name names!"
Complaining about too much liberalism in Hollywood, or calling a person a communist in Hollywood in the 40s-50s, was like criticizing San Francisco because there are too many gays.
OnTheBounce
Still Mildly Glowing
Constipated Bladerunner said:
Well, if you'd said, "Second rate hack and lapdog of imperialist stooges, brought to justice by the the vanguard of those who pine for the bygone days of the illustrious Comrade Stalins regime," I'd have agreed.
(j/k. Kazan was many things, a second rate hack wasn't one of them. Can't agree w/the man's politics, but I won't slander his abilities because of that.)
welsh said:
Perhaps, but the thing is that there were lots of people that were blacklisted who really wanted nothing more than a little bit of social justice.
For instance, the WWII propaganda film Sahara was written by one of the so-called "Hollywood Ten". Watch it some time and see if there's anything subversive about it. (Besides, Bogart stars in it, although that doesn't keep it from being a piece of trash of no interest besides historically.)
The same goes for lots of other films of the same type. Hell, if the blacklist had been instituted ten years earlier US propaganda films during the war would have been completely different.
OTB
welsh
Junkmaster
OTB- the entire thing stinks to me.
I tend to be a moderate on most things, but on the first amendment, I go a bit extreme. To black list someone or slander them merely because they are communists or reactionary, liberal or conservatives, and to deny them the opportunity to make art, is just wrong.
Free speech involves a risk, that people will say things that you don't want to hear, that you will be offended, that the nastiness comes out of the closet. But the costs of abiding by that fear are censorship and then death of free ideas.
I tend to be a moderate on most things, but on the first amendment, I go a bit extreme. To black list someone or slander them merely because they are communists or reactionary, liberal or conservatives, and to deny them the opportunity to make art, is just wrong.
Free speech involves a risk, that people will say things that you don't want to hear, that you will be offended, that the nastiness comes out of the closet. But the costs of abiding by that fear are censorship and then death of free ideas.
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2003/11/09/stories/2003110900030400.htm
Do your own damn research next time.
As far as I can tell, he helped out Joe McCarthy in one of the most un-American acts that ever got disguised as being helpful to the country. CCR, I find it funny how you're saying that he was brought down by "Leftist pigs" when it was his association with the fanatical Right that was his undoing.
- Why was such a brilliant filmmaker so condemned? The answer was his role during McCarthy's hearings in early 1952. The House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC, 1938-75) of the U.S. House of Representatives was created to investigate disloyalty and subversive organisations in the U.S. Its methods included pressure on witnesses to name former associates, make vague but sweeping charges against individuals, and the unjustified presumption of the individual's guilt ipso facto of their association with suspect organisations. Witnesses who refused to answer were cited for Contempt of Congress.
...
In January 1952, one of the witnesses summoned to give evidence before HUAC was Elia Kazan. During his early years in New York, he had fought to make his way as an immigrant from Turkey and had faced poverty and discrimination during the dark days of the Depression. For some time, he was a member of the Communist Party. Later he quit claiming that he was totally disillusioned. Deeply involved in various aspects of the theatre in New York he joined "Group Theatre", which had many intellectuals with leftist leanings.
In January 1952, Kazan came under the "magnifying glass-scanner" of Senator Joe McCarthy. Questioned about his association with the Communist Party during early 1930s, he confessed that he had been a member of the Communist Party for a short period and left it because he was "disgusted". When the Committee wanted him to reveal the names of his "Group Theatre" colleagues who were members of the Communist Party, he refused.
Back in Hollywood, the President of 20th Century-Fox, Spiro Skouras, threatened Kazan that he would never work in Hollywood again. Numb with fear, he shocked Hollywood and New York when he sought a meeting with HUAC and gave them the names they wanted.
This act of betrayal by a man of his stature sent waves of shock not only in Hollywood but also the rest of the U.S. and Europe. Kazan was treated as a social outcaste. To justify his stand, he took a full-page ad in a New York daily explaining his act.
Do your own damn research next time.
As far as I can tell, he helped out Joe McCarthy in one of the most un-American acts that ever got disguised as being helpful to the country. CCR, I find it funny how you're saying that he was brought down by "Leftist pigs" when it was his association with the fanatical Right that was his undoing.
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Do not know Sahara, but Spartacus is one of my favorite films for a similar reason. It was written by Peter Ustinas (sp?), one of the 10 (who won an Oscar under a well known psydomn, which, btw, was not meet with the kind of reception Kazan would later recieve in 99). While obvious that the film had Marxist begginings, with the novel being a favorite among such circles, Ustinas takes it up a few notches, to make the entire film about class struggle.
Not only that, but there is the entire fight between Kubrick, who wanted the "little Spartacus" who is destroyed by war, and Kirk Doublass, who wanted the "big Spartacus" which kills alot of Romans. Ultimately Ustinas favored the "big Spartacus", but the Homosexual parts still got into the screenplay(Oysters and such).
Ozrat, you are wrong for a few reasons. He only named names to save On The Water Front, one of the great movies of any era. And it is very, very safe to say that anyone would have chosen to save that film rather then save some worthless Commie's ass.
And I really think the whole "Council of Unamerican Activities" was not nearly what some peopel think it was. Quite a few of the 10 either went to France to work, or just worked under a Psyonym, and frankly, that is no reason to kick him off the stages in a state of disgrace.
OnTheBounce
Still Mildly Glowing
welsh said:
Okay, I see where you're coming from. Sorry, I was getting tired and it seemed you were of the mind that Hollywood was in fact riddled w/communists. That's why I pointed out that the people who ended up on the chopping block were mostly nothing of the sort.
Constipated Bladerunner said:
Too bad movie-going audiences didn't see that scene in the original release.
I remember when the director's cut came out I was sitting there and Olivier and Curtis are going through that scene and I was thinking, "I don't remember that in there!"it isn't hard to see why Kubric and Douglas never worked together after Spartacus, is it?
Constipated Bladerunner said:
Well, I'll agree that some of the impact has been exagerated, but then again that usually happens when more than three people talk about any subject: the hype takes over. On the same token I think you're being too dismissive of its impact, just like many other people are. It may be one thing for you to sit here and say "they just went to France or worked under pseudonyms", but even in those cases these people suffered for it. There was still a great risk when using a blacklisted writer, if someone spilled the beans, and consequently lots of those that were blacklisted ended up being ruined financially, or at least teetering on the edge of it.
I don't think that Kazan can be portrayed as a hero, no matter how much spin one puts on the story. At best he was simply a man trapped between his love for his work and the political climate at the time. At worst, he was a callow individual who lacked the spine to stand up to what ended up being a house of cards. Then again, people often find it easier to risk machinegun bullets than to risk the obloquy of their fellows.
OTB
welsh
Junkmaster
OnTheBounce said:
Ah you were thinking ill thoughts. I see.
No problem, mistakes happen.
Sometimes folks misperceive a comment and turn it to something they perhaps shouldn't. It's better to give everyone the benefit of the doubt (and this is not directed to OTB in particular).
As for as Kazen- well we can judge him as a callow man or a person trapped in his environment. But I also wonder how many of us, if given his situation, might have done the same thing. It is much easier to judge another for acts that we might condemn than to stand in someone's shoes and consider what we might have done had we been there ourselves.