Enclave and Fo3

Odin

Odin

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Je replied to a thread that was initially about the concept arts we posted here on NMA, but it all of sudden turned out to be a discussion about the Enclave and Fallout 3 (go figure):<blockquote>Why do the Enclave have to break the theme ?<blockquote>Because the Enclave exists far beyond the technological level of any other pre- or post-war culture seen in the Fallout games. It would seem more jarring to me if Enclave technology looked the same as vault or even BoS tech. In the 100+ years after the bombs fell, the Enclave just kept going. There's a reason why the BoS was so alarmed by their existence in FO2. </blockquote>Will there be Enclave in Fallout sequels:<blockquote>The only Enclave presence I see in a Fallout sequel is purely peripheral:
  • A few pieces of broken tech that make people say, "LOL I WISH WE COULD MAKE THIS WORK WITH OUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDING."
  • A few people who say, "Hey, remember when there was that big explosion in the ocean? That was weird."
  • References to the foundations of the Enclave in pre-war documents, often in relation to Poseidon Oil.
  • One or two minor characters who actually knew something about the Enclave or had contact with it. "Yeah, I don't know what the President was trying to do. Kind of insane, really."
In short, no Enclave organization, no Enclave bases, no Enclave storyline. Just fragments of their existence scattered across the wasteland.

EDIT: Considering how goofy San Francisco's population was (apologies to MC Comb), I'm surprised no one is more concerned with their presence in Fallout sequels.</blockquote></blockquote>Well that's all on the Enclave, for now...Stay tuned kids!
 
Hehe, I have to say I absolutely agree. I was actually going to reply to some thread where JE Sawyer said something about the three types of Graphics: Wasteland, Vault and Enclave. I was going to say: What? Enclave......call it Brotherhood, they're more important, and fit better.

But I decided not to......

IN any case, I think the enclave is a bit of a weird thing within Fallout. I actually felt that way for almost the entirety of San Francisco, Navarro, and the oil rig. I always wondered how it could be that noone hit an oil rig(especially with the president on it...although they may not have known that) with a bomb, and I found their style to be....inappropriate somehow, perhaps too technological, too advanced, or too weird....
 
JE Sawyer said:
Because the Enclave exists far beyond the technological level of any other pre- or post-war culture seen in the Fallout games. It would seem more jarring to me if Enclave technology looked the same as vault or even BoS tech. In the 100+ years after the bombs fell, the Enclave just kept going. There's a reason why the BoS was so alarmed by their existence in FO2.
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I see JE Sawyer doesn't get the idea of a themed setting. The people who created the setting follow the theme, not the people within the setting creating things which follow a theme. There's a huge difference there.

That difference would be that everything, no matter how new and fancy, would still follow that theme since that's the way the universe is. The researchers and scientists don't consciously say, HEY! LET'S MAKE SOMETHING LOOK LIKE IT'S FROM THE 1950s!, they create things that look like they're from the 1950s because they, themselves, are created that way by the designers of the setting.
 
I have to disagree with you, Saint-Proverbius.

The Enclave is a branch of humans that lived on as if the war didn't happen. They are, essentially, us - realworld people - about 50 years in the future.

With that in mind, look at our technology now compared to the technology in the 1950's. Things are smooth, sleek, and compact. There aren't any pointy corners or cube casings. There aren't any vacuum tubes. There aren't any dials and switches.

Their style would probably be different from ours because of their way of life - I would imagine everything they build would be built with space preservation in mind, because of their crowded area on the oil rig.

But their style would most definately evolve. It would look as different from the 1950's technology as ours does, if not moreso. (Being that they are 100 years after the 1950's, whereas we're only 50 years after.)
 
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Kortalh said:
I have to disagree with you, Saint-Proverbius.

The Enclave is a branch of humans that lived on as if the war didn't happen. They are, essentially, us - realworld people - about 50 years in the future.
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It's not the people, Sherlock, it's the setting.

With that in mind, look at our technology now compared to the technology in the 1950's. Things are smooth, sleek, and compact. There aren't any pointy corners or cube casings. There aren't any vacuum tubes. There aren't any dials and switches.
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And yet, when you look at the oil rig, it's still using lots and lots of retro-tech computers and technology - because it's the setting.

But their style would most definately evolve. It would look as different from the 1950's technology as ours does, if not moreso. (Being that they are 100 years after the 1950's, whereas we're only 50 years after.)
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One more time for the deaf, it's the setting that is 1950s pulp sci-fi retro-future, just like FireFly was an interstellar western. Yank the western theme from it, and it's just another hum-drum sci-fi series cancelled after one season.

Well, the underlying theme of the fifties is "science will save us" combined with Fallout retro-ness. Everything in Fallout is not directly '50s (ie. numerous '30s and '40s cultural spillovers, such as the hub, and visions of the future, such as the Vaults). Actual, unmolested '50s architecture is pretty rare throughout most of Fallout.
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Which would be because sci-fi writers at the time were basing a lot of stuff on WW2, the great depression, and what they knew.
 
That's a rather confining attitude. The Enclave fit (past tense since it's been noted that any Enclave presence is so miniscule after it's destruction that it would be as if they never existed) perfectly well in the FO universe theme. They had the evolved retro look. The 60s and beyond didn't happen but the style changed with the original look as a base.

Everywhere else things stayed with the same look because the people don't have the luxury of progressing, what with living in a wasteland. The setting of most of the world should be the same Fallout wasteland that we know and love, but that doesn't mean there can't be differences (as long as it isn't like FOT or FOBOS).

And the oil rig most likely stayed the same because they were vital systems that worked well enough. If it isn't broken don't fix it.
 
First off... just because two people disagree about something doesn't mean they have to be rude toward one another. There's absolutely no reason to be insulting.

Anyhow, I still disagree, so here is my reply:

Saint_Proverbius said:
It's not the people, Sherlock, it's the setting.
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The people -- the way they dress, their level of education, their way of thinking, ect -- are part of the setting just as much as anything else. Moreso when the setting was built by the people, such as the oil rig.

Saint_Proverbius said:
One more time for the deaf, it's the setting that is 1950s pulp sci-fi retro-future, just like FireFly was an interstellar western. Yank the western theme from it, and it's just another hum-drum sci-fi series cancelled after one season.
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If every single part of a world were exactly alike, it would be an awfully boring world.

Take a look at Star Wars, for example. There are desert planets, jungle planets, space-ship planets, and forest planets, but still the same feel to everything prevails. You could be inside the Death Star or on Tattoine, but you would still know it was Star Wars.

And the same goes with Fallout. You have tribal communities, high-tech vault cities, garbage-heap cities, and futuristic cities. But in the end, they all have the same overall look and feel.

Another point of argument is the Tribals. They're certainly not from the 1950s - I would say they're closer to the 1750s. But I assume you have no problem with their existence in the Fallout world. The Enclave is essentially the same idea, just on the other side of the time spectrum.
 
Kortalh said:
Take a look at Star Wars, for example. There are desert planets, jungle planets, space-ship planets, and forest planets, but still the same feel to everything prevails. You could be inside the Death Star or on Tattoine, but you would still know it was Star Wars.
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Here's a better analogy. In Lord of the Rings, the evil guy who created the ring got killed several millenia prior to the story, right? It's like asking why they couldn't fight his forces with panzer tanks because they had several thousand years to develop mechanized calvary. The fact of the matter is that Lord of the Rings has a setting backdrop of Nordic myth, and as such, tanks, machine guns, and so on wouldn't fit in with the setting. Likewise, Fallout has a 1950s pulp sci-fi setting, where ergonomics, transistors, and so on don't fit in because it violates that backdrop.

That's not to say you can't develop new technologies in Fallout's setting, but you have to develop them with that backdrop in mind. You can have ray guns and other futuristic things, but you have to make sure they fit.

Another point of argument is the Tribals. They're certainly not from the 1950s - I would say they're closer to the 1750s. But I assume you have no problem with their existence in the Fallout world. The Enclave is essentially the same idea, just on the other side of the time spectrum.
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Actually, the idea of tribals was presented in a few post holocost writings reaching back to postWW2 sci-fi. It goes back to Einstien's whole, I don't know what weapons World War Three will be fought with, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones prophetic quote that such a disasterous event would set mankind back to the stone age.

Then again, Fallout 2 didn't really handle tribals that well, seeing as how close they were to civilization.
 
Sorry for asking this, but was the Enclave ever mentioned in Fallout 1? It's been a while since I played it, so I can't really remember. :?
 
Continuity

Continuity

St._P. said:
That's not to say you can't develop new technologies in Fallout's setting, but you have to develop them with that backdrop in mind. You can have ray guns and other futuristic things, but you have to make sure they fit.
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This is basic editorial and production control technique. In film it's called
continuity. It's done in print media too. If a collage effect is wanted, then that's its own theme too. When proposing features, make the pitch FIT.

Otherwise, a rushed developer could hide patching disparent game pieces 'n' parts via: 'stream of consciousness', if you've ever followed the delta trails of my logic, now,............, would you really want to play a game according to "4too" rules............


Solid state electronics was a baby in the '50's, and in the world of FO
it never had to fit in a B-2 Bomber OR a Sony "Walk Man", or your
tweeting buzzin' cell phone.

Transisters would need an industrial base that survived the Bombs.
Would need new and "clean" fascillities too, for your "Brave New"
Enclave.

Possible; and yet, consider what research the Enclave might be doing post Apocalypse. They certainly wouldn't be thinking of mass market consumer electronics or NASA style space flights to embolden the scope of their R and D.

It might not be washing machine controls that drive them to miniturize and learn the concept of economy of scale. $600 toilet seat design efficiencies would be common.

AND AESTHETICS, would they have some FO-FO interior designer telling them they must use BIEGE!!!!!? That's consumer market thinking. It would have to FIT the military and economic necessities of their environment. Fit the sense and sensibilities of the survivors of the MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL-COMPLEX that Eisenhower warned the world about at the end of his Presidency.

What is the fashion sense of corporate socialists and proto Nazi's?

Would it be labratory white, or dark goth?


4too
 
Please everyone lets not forget that it is human nature to make everything smaller. Look at phones for example 4too cell phone example. Phones used to be 3ft tall with a dial a foot in diameter. then evolution to the smaller corded telephone, and finally to the cordless and cell phones of today.

Humans want things smaller so it can be understood that the Enclave wanted to make a laser version of the PP7. Laser guns everyone loves them until they put out an eye.

The Enclave are suck a valuable asset to the fallout universe in the fact that they provided story with suspense and intrigue. If you think JE is gonna turn his back on a chance at a story like that, you're crazy. I don't think anyone destroyed Navarro, even though i'm sure the Brotherhood will probably have attacked them in the next game if they're in it at all.

If anyone recalls the brotherhood was introduced into the first fallout as good guys, but when we get to the second game it's the Enclave introduced as the bad guys. I don't know of any unwritten rule stating that you can't have the bad guy return for the sequel. I mean come on look at Diablo.

The Enclave provide an extra facet of story cause is there any ideas as to the story of the third? They can't really use another village looking for a GECK or another vault looking for a water chip. What would be better that having the Enclave return from Navarro to create a massive battle between the Brotherhood and the Enclave with the entire southern Californian coast in the middle?
 
I trashed Navarro for the 11,000XP in nearly every game I played. I can't see the Chosen One, knowing what he/she knows about the faction, letting that base continue to run under that doctrine or with those people.

As for the Enclave's story.. Ummm.. Suspense? Huh? The Unity was much, much, much better presented in Fallout than the Enclave was in Fallout 2. All you got in Fallout 2 about them in all the many locations of the game was:

  • Frank kills some farmers
  • Vertibird crashed in Klamath
  • Enclave trades with Salvadores
  • Enclave is on Posieden's network
  • Matt tells you about Enclave, gets killed by Frank
  • Enclave makes smart Deathclaws
  • Enclave at Mariposa

I think that's about it until the very end when you blow them up, and then their whole plot for wiping out the world seems tossed in just for a reason to wipe them out. Of course, that'd be because it was simply tossed in for that reason.

If they bring any bad guy back from a previous Fallout game, the Enclave certainly wouldn't be my first chocie.

Anyway, there is only one thing that's really been miniturized in Fallout's setting, and it's definitely not the electronics. That would be fusion technology.
 
Please oh great saint, tell me then who would you bring back to be the villian in Fallout 3? The Unity is gone, and according to you the Enclave is as good as gone. So who would be your choice for the villian?
 
I'd bring back the Khans, personally. I'd have a mage cast a spell and raise them from the dead. I think it would fit well in Fallout 3: D&D Edition.

I find it interesting that J.E. has posted a lot of stuff on the Enclave though. Considering their whole death and destruction thing. There's also the point that if the player blows up the Oil Rig, how inclined are the rest at Navarro to do something about it?

Fallout 3: Return of the Enclave

- OR -

Fallout 3: The Enclave Strike Back
 
DarkUnderlord said:
Fallout 3: Return of the Enclave

- OR -

Fallout 3: The Enclave Strike Back
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Seen too many Star Wars movies ? :D

I'd like to encounter the mutant army or just move location to the east coast where some new enemy would appear.
 
Miniturization

Miniturization

Power Armor would push the envelope for transistor-electronic miniturization. AND many more domestic needs would be a hybrid because it wasn't pushed by a mass consumer market. A lot of stuff would be "good enough for who it's for". Fertile ground for graphics types there. Anything that had to be carried WOULD by human nature lighten up or be left at home, or by the road.



I'm sure some coalition of military-industrial stragglers, and or some rival survivalists, could be lurking in the wings, twisting their waxed mustashes and laughing in menace.

4too
 
Azail said:
Please oh great saint, tell me then who would you bring back to be the villian in Fallout 3? The Unity is gone, and according to you the Enclave is as good as gone. So who would be your choice for the villian?
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The Unity might be all but gone, but.. Mariposa is wide open after Fallout 2. Supermutants are still roaming the area with their freakish centaurs and floaters. The Master controlled The Unity with telepathy, so why not have a bit of "it" in every supermutant as a contingency? Think of it as a hypnotic trigger, waiting for the right time to recall all the Supermutants and the under The Unity that are still left to return to Mariposa or the Vault-Tec vault? The Children higher ups in other towns could have also known this plan, and decided to go in to hiding, quietly building their numbers, as cults tend to do.

Oh, and as for the Master, he was fairly amorphic, which leads to lots of possibilities. They could have kept parts of him in various locations, since he was mostly goo. Find some smart humans, allow the Master's parts to consume them, growing and growing in to a new incarnation of The Master. In fact, you could tie the two together and have Children capture Enclave scientists fleeing south from Navarro for use as feeding The Master back up to strength.

That said, I still like the idea of using FEV to stimulate the brains in Brain Bots and making them a legion of super-intelligent cyborgs.
 
Personally I'd like to see a lower magic setting. As in, less super mutants, ghouls, centaurs, wanamingos, deathclaws, etc. I can't imagine humans NOT making a concerted effort to wipe such abominations out, and considering the finite numbers involved (how much of that danged FEV virus can there be? Can't we retire it yet?) it just seems like the more time passes the less freaks there'll be. Almost all the freaks are sterile, or at least have questionable reproductive status (I was always under the impression that centaurs and floaters were somehow *made* by the Master, via whatever crazy process made the Master such a blob of goo) so some decline in populations is inevitable. Deathclaws are an exception, and considering that in every Fallout game nuclear weapons were set off (I'm including FOT), I suppose there might be opportunities for new ghouls as well.

Overall though, it seems that as more and more humans emerge from vaults and become better organized and move past subsistence farming at least to a scavenger-of-old-tech stage, they'd tend to edge out the freaks a bit. Ghouls could pass as humans with masks (and claiming perhaps that they need to wear the mask because they were badly burned), and Goris demonstrated that it's at least plausible for deathclaws to attempt to blend in. Super mutants are another matter entirely. But even super mutants are more likely to pass themselves off as humans (and are also intelligent enough to plausibly co-exist) than centaurs, aliens, etc.

One of the few things I liked about the "liberties" taken with the setting in Fallout 2 was the ghoul city running the nuke plant. Clearly demonstrated the kind of situation where ghouls could openly coexist; they pipe power to the humans working in a high-radiation environment, humans provde protection in return. Super-mutant miners was another reasonable idea. In the rare (and it should be rare, though I wouldn't expect Vault City's genocidal tendencies to be the norm) cases of coexistance, that kind of division-of-labor and thus necessity-of-coexistance should exist.

FOT totally confused my perception of deathclaws, up until then it seemed pretty clear that most were freak mutations that managed to survive as a species, but they were on the whole pretty stupid and thus mostly harmless (in the sense that velociraptors would be mostly harmless in a world of power armor, automatic weapons and rocket launchers) while the Enclave had managed to create a sub-breed that ranged in intelligence from moron to mensa. Yet in FOT we see smart deathclaws that had nothing to do with the Enclave. So I can't really pass judgement on the deathclaws until IPLY gets their story straight on whether the intelligent ones in FO2 and FOT were the exceptions or whether the dumb ones from FO were the exceptions....

Also, note to IPLY: After Wasteland and FOT, the terminator storyline is dead, dead dead. There just can't be THAT many AI's creating robot armies. And if there are, they should be somebody else's problem. My pick for a new plot would be a nation of survivalists carving themselves a new (and brutal) nation out of the wasteland. Imagine that, right-wing religious nuts killing anyone different from them, they could even make it provoked by some oil reserve or uranium mine or something. After all, no need to keep throwing in external threats like super mutants, the military-industrial complex, and killer robots. This is humanity, after all. They'll quickly make their own problems.
 
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