Draitex
Northern Beast from the Swedish tundra
Hello... I was wondering how you feel about this in general, it's mainly an argument between me and some of my friends.
I am a firm believer in that the NCR-Enclave Alliance makes perfect sense from a writers perspective and it's logical too.
Personally i think it makes sense for some reasons i'll state.
0. (for arguments sake, let's say there's a hidden Enclave outpost in the west)
Most of you are prbably thinking ''WAIT! the Enclave are elitist supremacist who would not associate with the lower beings like NCR and the like, and I will get to that too.
1. Enclave want's to bring back America, their original plan(s) failed miserably, and we are shown both in fallout 2 and NV that many soldiers...well some soldiers, were not really fond of their leadership, but led out of a moral duty, and patriotism.
In fallout 2, Ron Meyers.
He left the enclave, cause he did not want to fight for "rich old bastards who didn't want to give up their power."
And I would argue Granite too...but, it might have been out of desperation, and we're only told he doesn't like Frank Horrigan.
In Fallout NV
"I miss those days sometimes. We all had a purpose, you know? I admit that some of the folks in charge were pretty ruthless. The rest of us, though - we were just trying to civilize things. The NCR was still new and it didn't look like they'd last all that long." - Judah Kreger.
''The Enclave did a lot of bad things, but there were good people at Navarro. Good people with a lot of experience. Not many of them are alive anymore, but I think they could make a difference in the fight against Caesar.'' -Arcade Gannon
See, Even Kreger admits to NCR being capable, but they had no real reason to believe the NCR would hold up. and that their main goal was to ''civilize things'' which is just what the ncr is doing now.
2. leadership.
Richardsson
Whilst Richardsson atleast had something i'd like to call intelligence, his ''shut in'' approach of not dealing with other factions meant that the only way he saw to save humanity, was to spread their ''mutant'' killer.
He was blinded by his goal... His goal is a noble one, bringing back america, but his methods are.. well excessive.
And now...(we'll disregard the plot holes and poor writing)
Eden and Autumn.
Eden is a fucking idiot, that's it, that's his role, he gives his FEV ace in the hole to LW, after LW has done nothing but act against the Enclave...(and correct me if i am wrong, but the FEV in F3 would do the same as the one in Fallout 2 right, meaning kill every mutated human, ghoul, mutant alike?)
well... Autumns plan, And feel free to correct me here.
HE wanted to use the purifier for control, which makes A LOT MORE sense, control the population by controlling the water supply...but his actions to get to that point sadly does not.
Still, the troops in Fallout 3 are drones, obeying command without doubt, once again proving Kreger and Ron's point, the ones in charge are ruthless, and very ''above'' the rest.
(If they had a leader, that considered himself/herself equal to their troops, I would wager a lot would be different)
3. Enclave has adapted very well.
As previously stated their plans have changed from the start, going from Genocide to Control.
And After generations in the wasteland, the enclave would have been irriated and mutated right? albeit slightly. Meaning their original plans, might or will kill the Enclave aswell, if they decided to use the FEV, airborne or water...contaminated.
And there is this.
''Though they were a powerful force in the west decades ago, the Enclave has not been seen or heard from in the Mojave Wasteland for years. Members who were not hunted down are believed to have traveled east - or successfully integrated into the NCR.'' -Loading Screen in NV
Which also means that several soldiers have agreed enough with NCR's ideoligies, purpose, goals and views to join them. (and a lot that didn't i realize that)
4. NCR's Goal isn't to bring back america, but they are indirectly doing just that, a goal that the enclave share, If the Enclave would get the right leader to see past the whole ''mutie'' thing (which might be irrelevant after generations in the wastes if the enclave too are now mutated)
Even the previous Enclave leaders, say that they'd fight for America.
"When you see the Enclave, you see the United States Government. We are authorized to restore order and civility, by any means necessary." - Autumn
"The American people are worth fighting for. The future must be secured. I won't let you stand in the way of that." -Autumn
(If it's worth fighting for, it should be worth making an alliance for, especially at this point)
[When asked about if Richardsson considered what he doing is not the right thing.]
"Never. Part of the president's job is to make the tough decisions. A lot of near-humans will sacrifice their lives for the return of humanity. Humans will prevail."
Now, you may say this contradict my earlier statement, but bearing in mind that times have changed, and that Enclave MIGHT be irriated/mutated after generations in the wastes.
He does say a president's job is making tough descisions, an Alliance with NCR makes sense, even if it might be a hard pill to swallow at first, but as far as i can see, the only ''logical'' solution, and seeing how they share a lot of goals, overcomming their differences would not be that ''hard''.
BUT an alliance is not an easy desicion, and with the Enclave, broken, crippled and their original plan failed, what else are they to do, now when they have no means of accomplishing their original plan of restoring america. they can still restore america, but they'd have to play ''the long game'', and with NCR ''the long game'' could be much shorter, and with a higher chance of accomplishing it.
5. Neither NCR or Enclave likes the brotherhood, this could also tip the scales in favor for an alliance
(and the NCR-BoS Alliance in the NV ending is far more mind boggling for me than a NCR-Enclave one)
6. As previously stated, Enclave is a shell of it's former self, 2 of their plans in ruins, what else are they to do?.
7. I have no doubt Enclave would be far more willing to share tech with NCR, than say BoS
Now my rant is over, and i'd like to hear what you think about it.
I am fine with being wrong, so if i have missed something huge feel free to point it out.
I just think it would make a lot of sense, but again this might come down to a matter of opinion.
I am a firm believer in that the NCR-Enclave Alliance makes perfect sense from a writers perspective and it's logical too.
Personally i think it makes sense for some reasons i'll state.
0. (for arguments sake, let's say there's a hidden Enclave outpost in the west)
Most of you are prbably thinking ''WAIT! the Enclave are elitist supremacist who would not associate with the lower beings like NCR and the like, and I will get to that too.
1. Enclave want's to bring back America, their original plan(s) failed miserably, and we are shown both in fallout 2 and NV that many soldiers...well some soldiers, were not really fond of their leadership, but led out of a moral duty, and patriotism.
In fallout 2, Ron Meyers.
He left the enclave, cause he did not want to fight for "rich old bastards who didn't want to give up their power."
And I would argue Granite too...but, it might have been out of desperation, and we're only told he doesn't like Frank Horrigan.
In Fallout NV
"I miss those days sometimes. We all had a purpose, you know? I admit that some of the folks in charge were pretty ruthless. The rest of us, though - we were just trying to civilize things. The NCR was still new and it didn't look like they'd last all that long." - Judah Kreger.
''The Enclave did a lot of bad things, but there were good people at Navarro. Good people with a lot of experience. Not many of them are alive anymore, but I think they could make a difference in the fight against Caesar.'' -Arcade Gannon
See, Even Kreger admits to NCR being capable, but they had no real reason to believe the NCR would hold up. and that their main goal was to ''civilize things'' which is just what the ncr is doing now.
2. leadership.
Richardsson
Whilst Richardsson atleast had something i'd like to call intelligence, his ''shut in'' approach of not dealing with other factions meant that the only way he saw to save humanity, was to spread their ''mutant'' killer.
He was blinded by his goal... His goal is a noble one, bringing back america, but his methods are.. well excessive.
And now...(we'll disregard the plot holes and poor writing)
Eden and Autumn.
Eden is a fucking idiot, that's it, that's his role, he gives his FEV ace in the hole to LW, after LW has done nothing but act against the Enclave...(and correct me if i am wrong, but the FEV in F3 would do the same as the one in Fallout 2 right, meaning kill every mutated human, ghoul, mutant alike?)
well... Autumns plan, And feel free to correct me here.
HE wanted to use the purifier for control, which makes A LOT MORE sense, control the population by controlling the water supply...but his actions to get to that point sadly does not.
Still, the troops in Fallout 3 are drones, obeying command without doubt, once again proving Kreger and Ron's point, the ones in charge are ruthless, and very ''above'' the rest.
(If they had a leader, that considered himself/herself equal to their troops, I would wager a lot would be different)
3. Enclave has adapted very well.
As previously stated their plans have changed from the start, going from Genocide to Control.
And After generations in the wasteland, the enclave would have been irriated and mutated right? albeit slightly. Meaning their original plans, might or will kill the Enclave aswell, if they decided to use the FEV, airborne or water...contaminated.
And there is this.
''Though they were a powerful force in the west decades ago, the Enclave has not been seen or heard from in the Mojave Wasteland for years. Members who were not hunted down are believed to have traveled east - or successfully integrated into the NCR.'' -Loading Screen in NV
Which also means that several soldiers have agreed enough with NCR's ideoligies, purpose, goals and views to join them. (and a lot that didn't i realize that)
4. NCR's Goal isn't to bring back america, but they are indirectly doing just that, a goal that the enclave share, If the Enclave would get the right leader to see past the whole ''mutie'' thing (which might be irrelevant after generations in the wastes if the enclave too are now mutated)
Even the previous Enclave leaders, say that they'd fight for America.
"When you see the Enclave, you see the United States Government. We are authorized to restore order and civility, by any means necessary." - Autumn
"The American people are worth fighting for. The future must be secured. I won't let you stand in the way of that." -Autumn
(If it's worth fighting for, it should be worth making an alliance for, especially at this point)
[When asked about if Richardsson considered what he doing is not the right thing.]
"Never. Part of the president's job is to make the tough decisions. A lot of near-humans will sacrifice their lives for the return of humanity. Humans will prevail."
Now, you may say this contradict my earlier statement, but bearing in mind that times have changed, and that Enclave MIGHT be irriated/mutated after generations in the wastes.
He does say a president's job is making tough descisions, an Alliance with NCR makes sense, even if it might be a hard pill to swallow at first, but as far as i can see, the only ''logical'' solution, and seeing how they share a lot of goals, overcomming their differences would not be that ''hard''.
BUT an alliance is not an easy desicion, and with the Enclave, broken, crippled and their original plan failed, what else are they to do, now when they have no means of accomplishing their original plan of restoring america. they can still restore america, but they'd have to play ''the long game'', and with NCR ''the long game'' could be much shorter, and with a higher chance of accomplishing it.
5. Neither NCR or Enclave likes the brotherhood, this could also tip the scales in favor for an alliance
(and the NCR-BoS Alliance in the NV ending is far more mind boggling for me than a NCR-Enclave one)
6. As previously stated, Enclave is a shell of it's former self, 2 of their plans in ruins, what else are they to do?.
7. I have no doubt Enclave would be far more willing to share tech with NCR, than say BoS
Now my rant is over, and i'd like to hear what you think about it.
I am fine with being wrong, so if i have missed something huge feel free to point it out.
I just think it would make a lot of sense, but again this might come down to a matter of opinion.
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