Enclave or Unity

[SiriusShenanigans]

I would never argue that Dick Richardson or Frank Horrigan alone could match up to the Master in terms of impact or cool, but I think that overall, the Enclave makes for a really striking satire of the US and its problems that it makes for a good comparison. Who do you think was the better villain faction and which represents fallout better as a whole?

On one side you have the Master and the Unity. Gruesome, yet logical. The Master is trying to save the fading light of humanity by ushering in a new age without conflict. One people, united by his mind, equal with no dividing sense of self between them. They might be the best hope for the wasteland if it wasn't for their grievous oversight. He has an army of giant monsters that are strong and uniform. They don't need to think when guided by his voice worming his way into their minds. They are an enemy that hits at primal fears of humanity.

On the other, you have The Enclave, the marriage between corrupt self serving politicians, military elite, and affluent wartime aristocracy, the very people who would start the war that would end the world, yet in those final days before the apocalypse they decided that they were too important to die, and thus abandoned America to its fate. The enclave is unreasonable. They will hear no counter argument and negotiate with no tribal terrorists. They are hellbent on destroying the impure wasteland for the "True Americans" even if that means killing every one in the wasteland and the world. They are a satire that reflects problems with America even today, they are the enemy that stays with us even when we stop playing the game.

Which do you think is the better villain?

 

[Lone Cat]

Enclave. they did always found their new leader and still keep their fascist ideology afloat. (not sure about what happened to them in F3), yet without significant numbers and leaderships, they can still be talked out to work with their former enemy (New Vegas) through NCR never forgives them. not sure if the leaderless Enclave will ever find any refuge and accept wastelanders leadership and entrust them their grudge against NCR? Enclave is pretty weakened by now..

Master simply too obsessed with evolution, and once he's died (slain or commit suicide after PC brought Vree's Autopsy Report to him and tell him that 'All Super Mutants are Sterile' and later '.... but it does now!' (can't remember a full dialog but if you choose properly) he will commit suicide, a silent countdown where .. if you disguise as The Children of the Cathedral... you can walk out witout alarming any.) . Neither Unity nor The Children survived as an organization. the Children scattered and not hearded from since, Super Mutants are scattered across the land, never ever united again.... some still clinge to Master (like Tabitha, or 'Dog' in Dead Money), others (like Marcus (2 and NV) and those later found in Jacobstown (NV) and shown more humane side to the visitors) left the Unity behind and move on.

 

[FDO]

NCR in F2 does a better job at representing the wrong sides of western modern societies, from a european view at least, I never went to the US.
The enclave, well I don't know what to make of them in F2. Aside from their advanced technology, they suffer the same problem than the hubologists, they are too 'obvious', ridiculous even. They look fun the first time with their old US soldiers routine, and catching a little chat with one of those at the Gecko central is also fun.

But that's it, even in term of faction and not individuals, they don't leave me much to think about like the Master does. The Enclave just leave me with a doubt, if they should have make it in the game at all, in their present state.

 

[Lone Cat]

NCR in F2 does a better job at representing the wrong sides of western modern societies, from a european view at least, I never went to the US.
The enclave, well I don't know what to make of them in F2. Aside from their advanced technology, they suffer the same problem than the hubologists, they are too 'obvious', ridiculous even. They look fun the first time with their old US soldiers routine, and catching a little chat with one of those at the Gecko central is also fun.

But that's it, even in term of faction and not individuals, they don't leave me much to think about like the Master does. The Enclave just leave me with a doubt, if they should have make it in the game at all, in their present state.

Weren't NCR in F2 politically and socially followed much of the Latin America rather than the prewar United States of America? One of the four NCR endings (and not canon), was that after many NCR leaders in the cabinet were killed, the rightwings who survived staged a Coup d'Etat and created Military Junta... and granted Encalve a new home (or host). keep in mind that
1. NCR Constitution is different to ones of the USA.
2. NCR Presidency lasts for life or impeached. (by plebiscite or congressional vote.. not sure)

Neither did I live or ever visit the US.

 

[FDO]

I have no idea if the NCR governement was inspired or have similarities with latin america. All I am saying is that they represent corruption, megalomania and the special sickness that come with power just fine, all by being hidden behind pretty curtains exactly like, well, any government, or any major power, that claim to be civilised nowaday. I wrote 'western' before, but it also apply to east as well. Humans never change.

My problem with the Enclave is that beside the typical US cliche things going, like I said it's fun once or twice, but they really have nothing appealing, questionning if despite what they do, they might even have a reason, or something, anything to give them a other dimension.

 

[Lone Cat]

And too bad Beth didn't expand what happened to them after they lost Washington D.C. by the end of F3 Broken Steel DLC, and where did the Enclave Remnants in Mojave go if they joined Endgame Battle of Hoover Dam (nor establishing any canon ending in FNV beyond that Robert House was betrayed by his hireling (i.e. the Courier) and died... as said in F4 ???)

 

[Sublime]

D

And too bad Beth didn't expand what happened to them after they lost Washington D.C. by the end of F3 Broken Steel DLC, and where did the Enclave Remnants in Mojave go if they joined Endgame Battle of Hoover Dam (nor establishing any canon ending in FNV beyond that Robert House was betrayed by his hireling (i.e. the Courier) and died... as said in F4 ???)

Don't Remember that part of Fallout 4

 

[CT Phipps]

Absolutely the Enclave.

Wonderful satire, fascinating concepts, excellent history, and hateable villainy. While everyone is enamoured of the Master, I never really saw much of the moral ambiguity people think. He's destroying everyone and remaking them as semi-mindless collective tools of his gestalt. He's about as morally ambiguous as the Borg.

The Enclave, though, subverts patriotism and its ideals to make a compelling case for its existence.

If you're one of the clean.

 

[Sublime]

Enclave

'Cause

Spoiler

By the way I'm European

 

[Einhanderc7]

The Unity is obviously from my perspective the better villain faction.

Why? Because Mariposa Super Mutants were not some chumps walking around with guns. They were big green grumpy chumps with heavy weapons immune to disease, radiation, and who knows what else.

The Enclave on the other hand is a bunch of brain washed Neo-American Nazis.

The Unity was a veritable wrecking force perfectly adapted to post war America. Sure they didn't have Vertibirds but they had super mutants that would follow orders or die trying no matter the cost. You think an Enclave soldier is going to charge an overseer's minigun chair? Hell no, but a big brutish super mutant sure as hell will.

The Master's Lieutenant was not down to clown, the moment the vault dweller encountered him it was pretty much game over if you were brought to him.

The roaming bands of heavily armed super mutants, floaters, and centaurs were tough to handle. All the Enclave would do is literally stand there and shoot at the Chosen One. Which in case you never tried it, give Enclave encounter bowling a chance. Go get a rocket launcher with high explosive warheads, then go find an Enclave patrol, shoot with rocket launcher, and enjoy.

You can't go super mutant bowling, why? Because their patrols have range and melee 100% of the time.

If the Master was never defeated I would not be surprised if the entirety of post war America would be under his control in a swift manner. Also the Enclave are a great source of PRIME NORMAL HUMAN. Geeze, letting those two lock horns would be like feeding a Tyranid Hive Ship an Imperial Agri world.

 

[tgawt]

fallout 2 was a wasted opportunity with the enclave. felt like those themes of corruption and greed the enclave represent werent explored very well? fnv did that better (in my opoinion)

 

[Pwener]

fallout 2 was a wasted opportunity with the enclave. felt like those themes of corruption and greed the enclave represent werent explored very well? fnv did that better (in my opoinion)

True. They come off very moustache-twirling with how affably evil they are in F2. Hell, Fallout 3 actually showed them much more human with the whole Nazi "just following orders" thing they kind of hamfisted them with.

 

[Norzan]

Yeah, i prefer Unity much more. The Master's plan is actually pretty good: turn every human into a being far stronger than an human and immune to radiation, the thing that plagues the whole wasteland. Plus the Master is better written than the Enclave in my opinion.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

I feel like the moustache twirling evil side of the enclave makes sense though. They are supposed to be a contrast from the Master of the first game and a satire that mocks real life, and its kind of what makes this an interesting discussion. The Master and the Unity are the monster that threatens to destroy humanity, but they are actually ruled by reason, and will negotiate with the player. In that sense, they need to be justifiable in their action. The Enclave flips that on its head. Its not the big mutated people that are the monsters this time, its the humans who are the real monster, and as much as they look like dignified humans and carry the flag of the US, you can not reason with them at all. The Enclave looks like it should be reasonable but isn't, and its there at the end of a game that was acclaimed for your ability to reason out the last conflict in the first game. I think in a way, its meant to be a shock to anybody who played the first game.

I can see why both are appealing and interesting. I think ultimately my issue is that I just didn't spend a lot of time around super mutants in 1. Like I beat the game, but it never felt like I understood their themes or their impact. There was never a moment that felt personal with the supermutants that urged me to bring the fight to them.

Its really great seeing all the different opinions on which is better.

 

[MPPlantOfficial]

Unreal >>> Unity

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

In a generic narrative stand point, the master is certainly the better character, because he is a character, but I never got the idea that the Enclave was trying to be this humanized character. They didn't need to be. They were already human and American at that. It appealed to a strong sense of patriotism to subvert those ideals. I think together, the Enclave and Master show how diverse old fallout could be, and I really like that. It makes me frustrated when I see fallout getting stuck in its old ideas again. Anyway, I feel like I would never say that the agents of the enclave make better characters than the agents of the unity. The Unity is clearly the better suit for actual characters. They have motivations and are dynamic and you can empathize with their goal. The reason I find the Enclave to be amazing is that they represent something beyond the games. When I stop playing Fallout 1, I leave the Master behind along with the wasteland and all its struggles, but even if I stop playing Fallout 2, the evil of the enclave is still there.

 

[FDO]

The reason I find the Enclave to be amazing is that they represent something beyond the games. When I stop playing Fallout 1, I leave the Master behind along with the wasteland and all its struggles, but even if I stop playing Fallout 2, the evil of the enclave is still there.

The unity doesn't represent something beyond the game? It sure does for me. The master and his ideals, genuinely shared by some of his army remnants even after his death, haunt me way beyond the game.
Yet, having the unity destroyed as a power was the right move after Fallout 1 story, some things need to change and renew, just like you said.

But it doesn't mean Fallout 2 needed to spawn the old US to offer a 'new' sort of main vilains. What does the Enclave represent that the NCR doesn't, and in a much better way? The NCR get even better at it in New Vegas.
Looking at what the enclave did for the game in general, all I can see is all the bad cliche 'america, fuck baby we are the US' mentality that bethesda seem to have adopted in their presentations/trailers.

When do the words america or US were used at all in Fallout 1, and most of Fallout 2? And when in some patriotic nonsense, except maybe in old pre-bombs records like at the Glow? As in not making any sense or interest to anyone in the present?
Now Bethesda start it's 76 game with: 'The day has come, go outhere to rebuild fucking america, and remember, you are the best and brightest...'

It's not some personal problem of mine against the US, it could be England, Italy, France, Europe, Morocco, Iran, China or whatever old world country you can think of and I would feel the same about it.

 

[President_Peaches]

The Unity has never been beaten as an antagonist in the entire Fallout series. The creepy religious elements, body horror and the Master's heartbreak at learning that these seemingly powerful mutants will never be able to replace humanity gives the Unity a unique and surprisingly plausible feel.

The Enclave and the Legion are a bit too campy for my liking (though this was clearly somewhat intentional in NV- some characters even acknowledge how silly they look- and Fallout 2 has an overall cheesy tone anyway.)

 

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

OG Master makes for a better antagonist in the end. Matter of fact, OG Master is one of the best Villains ever created.

The Enclave is a bit vague. Sure as hell they wanted to make fun of self-righteous, dogma-driven, militaristic, nationalistic, demagogic authoritarians(not only the US, btw), but you need more than that if you want to make a good Prime Believable Evil. After all, with a mere speech check and a single c-4 you turn them from hero to zero. Kinda meh.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

But it doesn't mean Fallout 2 needed to spawn the old US to offer a 'new' sort of main vilains. What does the Enclave represent that the NCR doesn't, and in a much better way? The NCR get even better at it in New Vegas.
Looking at what the enclave did for the game in general, all I can see is all the bad cliche 'america, fuck baby we are the US' mentality that bethesda seem to have adopted in their presentations/trailers.

I feel like the Enclave and Ncr represent totally different things. Both are sorta... emulations of America, but there are huge differences between them. The NCR is an actual democracy, but the Enclave is not, and thats important because of who the enclave is. Its not just any random people from before the bombs fell, its the very people who pushed tensions towards war in the first place. Politicians who declared war, the military generals who sent their troops, and the aristocractic elite that demanded more resources that spawned the war. When you go to the Enclave, you talk to the president and he considers himself the president of the united states, but even though you are technically part of the US, you never voted for him and he doesn't care about you. There was study done by princeton, looking at 30 years of bills and whether they were likely to pass based on popular support or economic support, and basically the graph for popular support looks like this.

The government is in a state where they simply do not care about what your opinion is regardless of their duty. That's exactly what the Enclave does, and I find that terrifying. The Enclave is the manifestation of these 3 groups of politicians, military generals, and aristocracy that have decided they are the only ones that matter and that everybody else is just fodder and resources. They are believable in that respect and they make for a killer satire. You come in from the wasteland explaining how similar you are as humans and they just don't care, because thats exactly what they are like. The Enclave is the ghost of the old world, and the NCR will never be quite like that. If there is any group in Fallout 2 that emulates them more, its going to be Vault City, who exhibits the same exceptionalism and pretentions about themselves versus wastelanders.

Anyway, I'd love to hear about the instances that make the Master and the Unity really stand out to you. I played fallout 1 but I never felt like I spent enough time with it to get the whole story of the Master, and by the time I met him, he was just a man in a room.

Also, here is a video explaining that study if you were interested.