Fascism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ozrat
  • Start date Start date
O

Ozrat

Guest
Hey guys, here's something to think about, especially with the major news in the world we have these days.

So fascism is a relic of the past right? Something that was (virtually) destroyed at the end of WWII? Wrongo. Fascism isn't exactly what we learned in our high school history classes. Here's a definition from the American heritage Dictionary of the English Language...

fas-cism n.
1. a philosophy or system of government that advocatees or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an idealogy of beligerent nationalism.
2. (references to Italy druing WWII).

Hmm, interesting... It's a good thing that the U.S. doesn't have a far right ex-businessmen leaders that do anything to promote American. Oops, nevermind, I guess that's already happened! And we think it's crazy that Germany compared Bush Jr. to Hitler? It's sad to think that history may very well repeat itself just 2 generations after the last world war.

Let me know what you think
 
[updated:LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-03 AT 04:34AM (GMT)]I think it's relevant that Saddam fits that definition even better than Bush, and Saddam actually tortures people to death.
 
>I think it's relevant that Saddam fits that definition even
>better than Bush, and Saddam actually tortures people to
>death.

True - however, given the current trends within the current administration the US appears to be headed down this road.
Take into account:
- The sheer amount of the administration with ties to "Big Oil"
- The PATRIOT / USA anti-terrorist act and it's sequel still on the draft table
- The creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security
- Bush's indifference to the dire economic situation in lieu of his lust after Iraq

It makes you wonder sometimes. The real test will be in 2004, when the elections take place. If they don't, be VERY afraid of what happens next.
 
We're still a ways away from elections not taking place, and we're still damn far from being as bad as Saddam or North Korea.
 
Well.... here are a few ironic links.

The office of "Homeland Security" was the name of a similar agency created by Hitler in Germany.

The abreviation of Secret Service is SS.

anyways..... as to the other stuff...
I agree that we are a FAR ways off from not holding ellections.
Fascism is also a general term for an ideology. No government follows strictly any given government model but rather most of one so that then it is convenient for us to name it such. Different aspects of Fascism can be seen in any government model, especially if you focus attention on certain events in a short time frame, and some short run policies. Same goes for Communism, Marxism, and any other "isms" you can think of. Some to a larger extent than others.

This, however, also does not mean that you should completely dissregard such short run tendencies. Ignoring small problems and trends can often lead to huge problems in the future. A snowball effect. If somebody had spoken up, or taken simple action during the rise of Fascism, or Communism then they would not have become such monsters later.

In the end I would suggest vigilance, but restraint as well. Act but do not overreact. Giving a problem more attention than deserved can also feed it sometimes, just like ignoring it. Think before you jump(to any conclusions).
Screaming about something apparently trivial has the effect of making people dissmiss you as overreacting. Then the problem goes unnoticed and igneored along with you.
 
>I think it's relevant that Saddam fits that definition even
>better than Bush, and Saddam actually tortures people to
>death.

Okay, first of all torture has nothing to do with Fascism, perhaps you are still in the mindset of only associating Fascism with Hitler? That's exactly the topic I was trying to bring about into questioning, so thanks for the perfect example!

So you want to talk about torture? Okay, look at Camp Guatemala or whatever it's called that's in Cuba. Has anybody really got a clue what we're doing with these alleged terrorists? They've been held there for over a year without any real proof of any crimes. They were forced to cut their hair, forced thousands of miles away from their homes, families and friends. And yet they're still there. How long will they be there? We don't know. You don't think that's tourture? I haven't heard anything about it in the news for months. Looks like we've completely forgotten about them, just like the german population forgot that they had concentration camps. Not to mention that the U.S. held people of Japanese heritage in camps during WWII as well.

I really recommend that you guys watch the movie The Siege sometime. The scary part is that it was made years before 9/11

Thanks for the responses, no matter what viewpoint they come from. The more we think about this, the better. Ignorance may be bliss, but it sure doesn't create bliss.
 
It was not my intent to imply that torture was part of the definition. I was making the point that Saddam's government is fits the definition better, and is much worse than our own, as it is common to torture people to death for their political views. As for torturing terrorists... Well, you reap what you sow. Attacking through clandestine means requires similar means to combat terrorism.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't see your logic. The only case of terrorists torturing Americans that I can think of is of the reporter Dan Pearl(?), but that happened AFTER we started the camp in Cuba if I remember correctly. So how are they reaping what they sowed? Didn't I just say that we started making these camps back in WWII?

Instead of following kindergarten policies like "they started it!", the United States should be trying to set a good and noble to the rest of the world if it wants the respect that it thinks it deserves. Two wrongs do not make a right, as I hope you realize. These terrorists are not without provocation either, as the events are the snowballed results of decades of the United States' unwanted involvement and manipulation in Middle-Eastern countries, politics, and economies. Perhaps the harvest is from our seeds?

I can see how Saddam's government can be classified as a dictatorship and tyrrany, but not as fascist. Please explain exactly how Iraq falls under the fascist definition. Examples are nice :)
 
Okay, stupid:

Fascism == Nazism. Nazism == antisemitism. Antisemitizm == concentration camps. Concentration camps == evil. Thus, fascism == evil.
Saddam == evil, therefore Saddam == fascism.
Now, Bush == president. President == leader of US. US == leader of free world. Free world == democracy. Democracy == good. Good != evil. Therefore, democracy != fascism. Bush == democracy, Bush == good, and Bush != fascism. Simple, no?
 
[updated:LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-03 AT 07:58PM (GMT)]Who said anything about Terrorists torturing Americans? They sowed these seeds by hiding in the populace and striking from the shadows. When we get one of these guys in custody, we've got to get as much information that we can from him as possible as quickly as possible. If they wanted to find a nation willing to oppose America and join that army, then sure torture would be too extreme, we could just bomb to the nation. However, because of the way we they fight us, this is the way we fight them.

"I can see how Saddam's government can be classified as a dictatorship and tyrrany, but not as fascist."

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never claimed Saddam was a fascist, I said he fit the definition better than W. Is that hard to understand?

And WWII internment camps have jack shit to do with today's terrorists, so stop trying to confuse the issue.
 
>Okay, stupid:
>
>Fascism == Nazism.

Actually, no. Fascism == first post in this thread. That's why I placed the definition there in the first place. Nazism isn't even a word or an ideaology. It's a political party formed in Germany during the 1930's. That's just like saying Republicism==Democracy. Must I go into details of how Republicans have actually hindered democracy in the past or even today? Just look at Trent Lott, who in case you've forgotten still wishes we had "whites only" signs on everything. And he's one of the most influential Republican leaders today. Scary thought if you ask me.

>Nazism == antisemitism.

Actually this was one of the side effects of the Nazi leadership. Too bad you didn't mention that Hitler also had one of the highest approval rates ever, and Germany had an employment rate of 100% during his rule. Bush started out with a good economy and good approval rate, but they keep going down the drain. This does not mean that I support what Hitler did, its just a comparison to our leader.

>Antisemitizm == concentration camps.

Oh, so what's making us build camps? A love for other countries?

>Concentration camps == evil.

This is the only part of your reply that I agree with. That's why I brought them up in the first place. We shouldn't have any camps of any types at all.

>Thus,
>fascism == evil.
>Saddam == evil, therefore Saddam == fascism.
>Now, Bush == president. President == leader of US. US ==
>leader of free world.

Have you been watching the news? The majority of the free world is now against the U.S. AND Bush Jr.

>Free world == democracy. Democracy ==
>good. Good != evil.

Okay, I agree with these as well, but they're irrelevant.

>Therefore, democracy != fascism. Bush ==
>democracy, Bush == good, and Bush != fascism. Simple, no?

It sure sounds simple, but nothing is that simple anymore these days. Trying to simplify the problem is what makes it keep getting bigger. We are not the same country we were 60 years ago nor do we have the same goal. In fact, we aren't or ever been a true democracy. Look it up, we're a federal republic. Shocker!
 
Ok, let's hold a second here.

As for terrorism and torture- well terrorists have been torturing journalists and other non-combatants for awhile. Back in the 1970s and 80s, in the aftermath of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, quite a few americans were grabbed from the American University. As for journalists going tortured, yes its happened before.

As for democratic states using torture- sure that's happened too. You have only to look at French counter-insurgency strategy in Algeria. One can be democratic and torture. The principle of governance does not, in of itself, dictate the level of human rights violation. There are a lot of democracies, and many of them have done nasty things.

As for the Japanese internment camps. This case was the one, the only, case of de jure equal protection violation against a nationality that was, since the 1940s, sustained by the Supreme Court of the US. The reason was because the Court deferred to the Department of War (now department of defense) belief that it was impossible to distinguish the spies and sabateurs among the Japanese, and that there was proof of Japanese spies in the US. The case, Korematsu, has often been seen as the biggest disgrace in US Supreme Court history on the issue of Equal Protection. Furthermore, reparations have been paid. After 9/11 there was some fear of a repeat of that experience regarding people of Middle East dissent. The US government took great pains to limit the amount of revenge against people of Middle Eastern dissent in the days that followed. (In contrast considered the number of Sikhs who were killed in India after the assassination of Indira Ghandi).

Does the Bush administration seem driven by big business, supports both oil and automobiles. Yes. But then it is a republican administration, which has generally been seen as big business. Even so there have been substantial restraints. For example there is significant doubt that Bush's "end double tax on corporations" will pass (let's hope it doesn't).

Is Bush far right, no not really. He is supported by a fairly conservative party that is on the right wing.

Let's look at our Facists. They are generally nationalistic, socialistic, heavily state-led economic growth, militaristic, adventuristic, authoritarian under a single party.

The US, yes Americans are patriotic and many are nationalistic, but many americans have significant doubts about adventures abroad and are voicing that dissent. Bush's economic policy is favorable to business (as if any government can afford not ot be) but generally its a regulatory approach and not a state directed approach. Not socialistic- in fact anything but. Militaristic- yes more is being spent on defense now, but not like you saw in most authoritarian regimes, or facist regimes. US defense spending is still a small protion of total GNP. No single party yet. Advenuristic? Maybe. In fact the current policies seem to raise the specter that the UN may be relegated to history if this keeps up.
But Facist. No.

Sadam, single party, human rights abuse, military keeps him in power, two billion net worth on oil revenue, lots of military adventures. autoritarian, nationalistic, socialistic?
 
Hey there,

Thanks for the intelligent reply. That's exactly what I'm looking for here, not somebody who starts a reply with an insult and poor math and reasoning skills. You had some points that I agree with, which is a good thing :) and some points that I don't agree with, but there were no glaring areas of, to quote somebody, "stupid"ism.

Just one thing I'd like to point out. Even before 9/11, our country was spending nearly 50 cents out of every tax dollar on the military. That's an enormous amount of money, considering that the US is the richest organization in the world. Today it's been increasing with no end in sight. We have virutally no clue what our boys overseas are doing, except for mostly the stuff that's been approved for the general public to know. We have by far the world's largest military, and we're just itching to use it.

But once again, it was a pleasure reading a well structured and proven reply. Anybody else?
 
Well thanks.

However, I have my doubts about your 50 cents on the dollar statistic and would love to see it.

I am looking at the 2001 Statistical Abstract for the United States published by the National Data Bank, and they are telling me some interesting thing.

In 2001 the federal outlays to the Defense Department was 283.9 billion dollars. That's a lot mulah. However, that was only the third place in US spending. Health and Human Services beat out Defense 430.5 billion and Treasury by 388.5 billion. Total federal outlays was 1.856 Trillion. Most of that comes from tax dollars.

But that's not the whole picture. If you look at the pecent of outlays as percent of both total federal outlays, it seems to have gone down from about 28% in 1987 to about 15-16% in 2001 of total federal outlays. As share of the GDP it goes from about 6-7% in 1987 to about 3% in 2001.

Regretfully those are the best stats I have at the moment, and that was 2001 which was a good economic year.

What does that mean? Well fuck, I mean 283 bil ain't chump change! But what do we get for it and where does most of the money go. Well operations and maintenace take up most of the money (110 bil) with personnel costs at about 72 bil. That's a lot of personnel. Procurement and research & development take up together about 90 bil.

Well you are right, it's a lot of damn money. Do we know where it is all going. Yes, generally we do. The congress has substantial oversight on defense, intelligence and foreign policy. It's investigative arm, the GAO is considered one of the best investigative arms of the US government (and you almost always see it featured in the news). Furthermore the various department and agencies under the defense department get internal auditors and there are whistle blower laws that allow further oversight (this came about because of the fraud committed against the government).

SO what do we get for that besides B1 bombts, aircraft carriers. Well we get the peace of mind of knowing that the Chinese better watch their ass if they want to fuck around with the US. We can probably still fight two major actions in two parts of the world at the same time, plus have stuff left over for little adventures.

As you note, no single country has the ability to confront the US militaristically. The only possible strategy is one of attrition and subversion. Furthermore, almost no country could undertake the massive investment needed to catch up with the US, and probably won't be able to until 2030 (at which time we better keep an eye on the Chinese). Of course if Europe wanted to threaten the US it would have to make more of its European Union than it does, but to be honest the Europenas spend more on social welfare than we do and it's unlikely to build a force. Imperialism, at least the old form of having colonies, is not a profit making enterprise.

So why have a military? It's called public goods. To be world leader means that you have to provide certain public goods to other countries. This includes stability in the economic market, stable currency, flexible rules of trade and development, peaceful means of resolving disputes, forums for international discussion and agenda setting, but also peace and stability. If you want to be leader of the free world, you got to pay your dues, and frankly, 3% of GDP isn't that bad for defense.

SO where does it all come from- Well you have your World Bank system, your Gatt followed by the WTO. YOu had the bretton woods system until Nixon took us off the Gold Standard. You also have the ICJ and other means of resolving disputes (including the UN). You even have some sense of norms.

But peace and stability can come from the UN, right? No. The UN was a product of real politics, formed originally by the Atlantic Charter and then furthered by the US and, in keeping with its big ally, England, with the difficult cooperation of the Soviets at the end of the Second World War with the express mission not to let another world war happen again. But the UN split soon after over cold war ideologies, and didn't reemerge as a force until near the end of the cold war.

So what kept the peace? Strangely, probably nuclear weapons and the assurance of a second strike, in otherwords the Balance of Terror avoided a third world war.

So why so much for defense? Ask yourself what would happen if the US wasn't sending the 7th Fleet between the Red Sea and Japan, and backed up with the 3rd Fleet than you would have Japan shitting over whether it would get its oil from the Gulf, you would have the Chinese sabre rattling over their historic sphere of influence. You would also have greater willingness by "great powers" to build militaries to protect their interests.

What does that mean? Well based on past posts you could probably forecast a lot more heavy handedness (war) in the world, and not as much money in your pocket.

It's not a perfect world, and in many places it sucks. The US does what it does out of its own interests, and sure there is exploitation by the rich of the poor. That sucks. And that exploitation is done by those in power. But some states, regimes, governments live and some die. Some countries do well economically and some lose. That's how it's always been. WHere is the most suffering- in the former communist countries and the former colonies. Why, probably because of the power relationships within those states more than the "all powerful" hand of the US in everything.

Yes, the US has a hand in some of it, but not in all of it. Generally speaking I think the world is a much better place now than it was 60 years ago, or a hundred years ago.

ye gosh, long post, sorry folks
 
Back
Top