Fix AP ammo bug

H

Havoc6969

First time out of the vault
Im new to the fallout2 editor and I was just wondering if anyone here knows how to change the way damage is calculated. Basically I want to change the order in which it calculates Damage Resistance, Damage Threshold and Damage Modifier on all ammo. Im hoping to be able to fix the bug where Armor Piercing ammo does less damage than Hollow Point ammo against armored opponents. I have seen the mods that have been released to supposedly fix this, but they just dont work correctly. The only way to fix this, in my opinion, would be to calculate Dam Resist first(adding the ammo modifiers), then the Damage Threshold would subtract from the remaining damage and finally the Damage Modifier on the ammo would multiply/divide whats left. If anyone knows what file or whatever I need to edit to do this, I would be very appreciative.
 
If you bother to do the least bit of searching youll discover that that is a bug that was fixed long ago.
 
hehehe Psycho you big meany! (I've had too much wine)

My guese is that you could edit the proto file for the ammo types mate :)

Though i'm not that sure to be honest, I know Team-X's website has more info on the fallout2 damage calculations
 
I went to the site by team x, but most of their forum was in russian, and the only forum in english didnt have what I was looking for. Thanks for the info anyway Wild_Qwerty. :) The ammo patch I used a while back was called patch41.zip, and as far as I could tell, all it did was change the damage resist on the ammo by +10 on JHP and -10 on AP (both 10mm rounds). It also changed the 1/2 Damage Mod on AP to 1/1.
That was a slight improvement what it was before, but against power armor, JHP still did more damage. Is there another patch to fix AP ammo that I dont know about?
 
Ive searched this forum thoroughly, and all ive seen is people complaining about problems with weapons becoming much too powerful because of the new ammo mods. I have tried modding the ammo myself in the proto files, and I have discovered that u cant fix ap ammo just by tweaking a few values in the editor. It is the order in which the damage is calulated that is the problem. For example, the P90 does 16 max damage. The way the game calculates now, with ap ammo 16 damage x 1/2 damage mod (on ammo) = 8. 8 minus 12 damage threshold (power armor)=0 damage. 0 damage x .15 (15%) Damage Resist (Power Armor 40%-25%) still = 0. Now JHP ammo. 16 max damage x 2/1 damage mod =32. 32- 12 damage threshold = 20 damage. 20 x .65 (65%) Damage resist (power armor 40% + 25%) = 13. 20 damage - 13 =7 damage for JHP, compared to 0 for AP ammo. Now if it were calculated Damage Resist first, Damage Threshold second and Damage Mod last, u would find that u get very different values that more accurately simulate AP ammo and JHP ammo. This would make the whole AP and JHP ammo system useful. U would have to save what little AP ammo u find (In my mod anyway) for the fights with heavily armored foes.
 
I made a chart that compares the ammo stats between FO1, FO1 AmmoPatch, FO2, FO2 Patch 1.05, and FO2 AmmoPatch. The last two columns show the net change from the original FO2 numbers.

I was surprised to see how boosted the damage is in patch 1.05, many are 300% the damage of FO2, one is 500% (9mm). F2 AmmoPatch usually has 150% where Patch 1.05 has 300%.

I noticed that 5mm JHP was REALLY bugged in FO1, because it had the negative DR that 5mm AP is supposed to have (in FO1 the 5mm JHP is 200% as powerful as 5mm AP).

Looking at all of these numbers, the thing that makes no sense to me is positive resistance values. Why should ANY ammo ADD to your resistance? I just don't grip that. It seems to me that the only DR numbers should be negative (ie the JHP should be zero DR and the AP should be negative DR).

I think I am going to try a new set of numbers where the multipliers are less (3x seems to much) but the DR for JHP is zero.

Fallout really has some wacky ammo stats!

Where can I read about the effects of these different bullets (JHP, AP, FMJ, Ball) ... and also the calibers? Is there some good web sites somewhere that talk about the basics of this?
 
dude_obj said:
I was surprised to see how boosted the damage is in patch 1.05, many are 300% the damage of FO2, one is 500% (9mm). F2 AmmoPatch usually has 150% where Patch 1.05 has 300%.
Click to expand...

Must be why I don't use these patches. OK, one of the reasons...

dude_obj said:
I noticed that 5mm JHP was REALLY bugged in FO1, because it had the negative DR that 5mm AP is supposed to have (in FO1 the 5mm JHP is 200% as powerful as 5mm AP).
Click to expand...

My Fo1 guide has this: "The DR modifiers for the two kinds of 5mm ammo seem to have been reversed (they're fixed in Fallout 2), which should mean 5mm AP is even suckier than the basic suckiness of AP ammo. Tests indicate that the difference is not as great as it should be (which could mean that ammo behaviour is not fully understood), but you should be safe sticking to the "AP sucks" rule." You didn't do any field testing yet, right?

dude_obj said:
Looking at all of these numbers, the thing that makes no sense to me is positive resistance values. Why should ANY ammo ADD to your resistance? I just don't grip that.
Click to expand...

It's a way of modifying damage more finely. Adding 5% to everyone's DR will remove a portion of the damage, maybe less than modifying the multiplier. Yeah, I know, it's still an incomprehensible system. Could have consequences for enemies with very high DR already (think power armour); presumably it's capped at 95%.
 
Per said:
5mm AP is even suckier than the basic suckiness of AP ammo. Tests indicate that the difference is not as great as it should be (which could mean that ammo behaviour is not fully understood), but you should be safe sticking to the "AP sucks" rule." You didn't do any field testing yet, right?
Click to expand...

My field testing consisted of playing FO2 and having mordino men stand right next to me blasting 10mm AP with SMGs with NO effect. So I want to fix this, but not triple the damage like in patch 1.05. And I added 9mm JHP and 9mm AP. There are lots of nice SMGs and Pistols that need this ammo now (from FoT). It would be nice to get some ammo stats that make sense. I think I will make a new set of numbers and ask people to try them on FO2. My new proto numbers are different but I can make a set that will work with the FO2 game.
 
:oops: Ive been doing more testing with JHP and AP ammo, and I have discovered that the way I wanted damage calculated was not as good as I thought.

A better order for damage calculations during combat would be:

If a hit is successful:

1: Damage done is multiplied by Damage Modifer on Ammo (2/1, 1/1 etc..)

2: Damage is then reduced by Damage Resistance (add/subtract the Dmg Resist of armor and ammo together to get total Dmg Resist)

3: Damage is then reduced by the Damage Threshhold

My reasoning for this, is that Damage Resist can reduce damage by a lot more than Damage Threshold can. Damage Resist can't however, reduce damage to 0.0 (unless it was raised to 100%, which would ruin the balance of the game)

I wonder if this is just something that just can't be modified in the game?
 
Havoc6969 said:
I wonder if this is just something that just can't be modified in the game?
Click to expand...

How did you determine the order that damage is calculated? This is hard-coded in the binary executable, so it can't be changed. Some simple things have been changed by patching, but something like damage calculation, I think we're stuck with what we have.
 
The way I determined how damage is calculated was by testing my ammo changes (dmg Mod, dmg Threshhold and dmg Resist) in the game mode in the official mapper. I would edit a pro. files ammo stats, then test it in the game mode.

I used a 10mm pistol and SMG with both their Min dmg and Max dmg set to 12.

(a flat 12 dmg, so my math is not affected by dmg rolls)

I would change a value on the ammo and then test it in game mode and compare the damage I was seeing on the game to what I was seeing on my calculator.
 
The way I determined how damage is calculated was by testing my ammo changes (dmg Mod, dmg Threshhold and dmg Resist) in the game mode in the official mapper. I would edit a pro. files ammo stats, then test it in the game mode.

I used a 10mm pistol and SMG with both their Min dmg and Max dmg set to 12.

(a flat 12 dmg, so my math is not affected by dmg rolls)

I would change a value on the ammo and then test it in game mode and compare the damage I was seeing on the game to what I was seeing on my calculator.
 
I know this is old topic but someone can be interested in this problem so.
I have the solution (sorry my English):

Dmg_:=Trunc(Dmg_w*(Dmg_mod_1/Dmg_mod_2)-DT_armor)-Trunc(Trunc(Dmg_w*(Dmg_mod_1/Dmg_mod_2)-DT_armor)*(DR_armor+DR_mod_ammo))

here is:
Dmg_w - weapon base damage (average from min & max damage)
Dmg_mod_1 oraz Dmg_mod_2 - ammo Damage modificators
DR_mod_ammo - ammo Damage Resistance (% as 0,01)

DT_armor - armor Damage Treshold
DR_armor - armor Damage Resistance (% as 0,01)


Results are truncated by function [trunc] to integer.

Example

Desert Eagle:
min_dmg = 10 |
| avg_dmg = (10+16)/2= 13
max_dmg = 16 |



JHP ammo: 2/1 20%
Dmg_mod_1 = 2
Dmg_mod_2 = 1
DR_mod_ammo = 20% = 0,20



armor Metal Armor: 4/30%
DT_armor = 4
DR_armor = 30% = 0,30


Result:

Dmg_:=
=Trunc(13*2/1-4)-Trunc(Trunc(13*2/1-4)*(0,30+0,20))=Trunc(26-4)-Trunc(Tunc(26-4)*0,5)=22-Trunc(22*0,5)=22-11=11



For ammo type FMJ: 1/1 -20%
result is:

Dmg_:=
=Trunc(13*1/1-4)-Trunc(Trunc(13*1/1-4)*(0,30+(-0,20)))=Trunc(13-4)-Trunc(Tunc(13-4)*0,1)=9-Trunc(9*0,1)=9-0=9


So we have such results for Metal Armor:

ammo JHP - 11 dmg
ammo AP - 9 dmg


Strange? isn't it?

Check the solution and you can improve the ammo and armor statistic's to desired param's to have good work.

I made a patch for the balancing AP/FMJ/JHP ammo.
 
The_Pastmaster said:
An off topic question if a may?

AC, DR and sutch, how do you wright so that the bullet dosent ADD to the DR and AC?
Click to expand...

sorry I don't understand Your question.

You mean that AC is not implementend in my solution? If so, this is not necessary, because AC is calculated in other way.

My solution is based on a lot of tests on different type ammo's and armour's with a gun wich have flat damage=100.

AC is Armor Class adjust. It is not used to calculate inflicted damage.

I made first version of patch, send it to jargo but I do not have any question from him about it, so I'm waiting.
 
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