[FO2] Q-s: Burst specifics, .44 JHP vs FMJ and more

[ints]

Hello, first post here . During the last decade I've played FO2 couple of times through and also quit couple of times late and mid game, I've also played FO1 once (through). So I've got some vague idea about the game.
Anyway.. I just got the urge to play FO2 again and decided that this time I'll try some guide since I figured I have already discovered 80-90% of the game. Unfortunately I just don't have the time to replay it 100 times to reach 100% on my own (which I think is impossible anyway, without the guide). But I still want to know what else is out there plus I'm planning on going ironman next time around, so want to know every tidbit to avoid nasty surprises... hence the guide. So I found Per's guide, and that's some really massive work there, have read about 1/3 of it for now.

Btw Per, kinda sadistic background you've got there in the guide. It almost caused me blindness. Saving the page and removing background image and bgcolor="Silver" helped, so no harm done. That doesn't reduce the greatness of the guide of course, amazing work!

Anyway, as ultimate as it is, it still doesn't answer couple of questions I had. I have done some searching in this forum too and read results all day but still haven't got the answers, so I'd be glad if you didn't ban me yet

So, back to the topic. About burstmode:
1) how is the burst "cone" determined? Is it always the same for any weapon?

2) I know that damage and hit chance is determined for each bullet separately (and per's guide confirmed that), but what about the specifics?

Let's say the villain is 5 hexes away or stands just next to me. FO2 shows me "95%" both cases, but it's obvious that each bullet doesn't always have 95% chance to hit in both cases.
So, what does it exactly show and how is the hit chances of each bullet exactly calculated? Does it show the hit chance of first bullet and the next bullets have slightly smaller chance to hit? E.g. 1st 95%, 2nd 90%, 3rd 85% etc.

If thats the case, does the consecutive bullet's hit chance depend on the previous bullet's actual, rounded down hit chance (i.e. _after_ it's rounded down to 95%) or before rounding it down? Blah, that sentence doesn't sound too easy to understand, so, an example. For simplicity's sake let's assume each consecutive bullet gets -5 to hit:
case 1:
1st___2nd__3rd___4th
130% 125% 120% 115%
rounded down to:
95% 95% 95% 95%
OR
case 2:
1st___2nd__3rd___4th
130%
first rounded down to 95% and consecutive bullet depends on that number and so on:
95% 90% 85% 80%

The last paragraph in other words:
3) is there any difference having weapon skill at 150% vs at 250% if FO2 shows me burst hit chance 95% in both cases in some particular situation?

4) Burst critical is determined for the whole burst, not each bullet separately, right?

5) Corpses catch burst bullets, derived from corpses lowering hit chance I guess. So do live creatures standing in the way (especially Vic and Sulik if Marcus decides to join the action :p)... what else? Terrain changes too? E.g. I stand on stone plates and the villain on sand? That last one sounds so moronic that I almost deleted it , but.. well.. there's weirder stuff in games.

Ok, enough of the bursts...

6) Now, one of my very favorite weapons in the game is .44 magnum revolver and I just love to shoot people in their eyes with it. And other less intelligent creatures too.. and then there's Lynette.
I sometimes take Better Criticals perk.
Per says: "Of the two types of .44 ammo, FMJ is marginally better unless you count on getting lots of no-armour criticals, in which case the JHP delivers more raw damage."
I take it I should go with JHP 100% of the time, right? Are there any exceptions? 99% of the shots I take with that gun are aimed in eyes.

7) Lastly, question about PE influencing hit chances for different ranges. I always thought that there is no way I can compensate for having extremely low PE if I want to do long range sniping. I've never played low PE yet for that very reason.
I found some formulas of FO1 here. Do they apply for FO2 in terms of PE influencing hit chance? From that formula I conclude that I can get the exact same hit chances in any situation with much lower PE if I compensate by adding ((PE difference)*8) skill points to the weapon skill. Right?



Thank you for your time!

PS. Sorry for my bad English, ain't my native language.
PS2. I just figured out that I could test the PE thing myself with a savegame editor if it allows to change stats (I have never used one before).


EDIT:
Hmm, meanwhile I might have figured out something on my own (zomg!) about the cone and why does burst show "95%" in different ranges but doesn't really seem like I hit that guy 95% both cases.
So, my other theory is that it actually shows the percentage that each bullet "hits something in the cone at that range" whether there is anyone in the cone except the target or not. And the times it doesn't hit the cone, it's a total miss (== doesn't ever hit something outside the cone either, but that's not important at the moment). So, for example with m% hit chance, if the guy is n hexes away where the cone is 3 hexes wide, most bullets go along the middle path and hit him m% of time and some bullets go to the left and right hex, "miss" the target in middle hex but still have the m% hitting chance if anything is on their path in the cone (m% for range n, might be less farther away). That's my problem if there's no villains to catch those spare bullets going through the other paths
In case of point blank, the cone is 1 hex wide (probably is), all the bullets go along the only path to the target, each having 95% chance of hitting (if all the bullets of the burst have same hit chance, i.e. it isn't reduced for each consecutive bullet as is in JA2).
Hence the difference in bursting a single target with "95%" when he is 1 hex away or n hexes away.
Of course if this theory is even remotely close to the real thing, the formulas would be more complicated, obviously, but that's the basic idea.

 

[Per]

Btw Per, kinda sadistic background you've got there in the guide. It almost caused me blindness.

Apparently it's more offensive on some monitors other than my own. I know that goes for some of the other backgrounds I use on my site.

Let's say the villain is 5 hexes away or stands just next to me. FO2 shows me "95%" both cases, but it's obvious that each bullet doesn't always have 95% chance to hit in both cases.
So, what does it exactly show and how is the hit chances of each bullet exactly calculated?

Well, there was a guy who posted a lot of stuff like this on another forum, but those posts are gone and I don't know where he got the information from. What I seem to remember he wrote is that you make a to hit roll normally. If you miss, nothing hits anything. If you hit, then if your target is in the hex closest to you, all bullets hit, otherwise a third of them hit. That's why point blank bursts are so effective. I have no idea how secondary targets are handled though. Or for that matter, weapons with 2-3 bullet bursts.

3) is there any difference having weapon skill at 150% vs at 250% if FO2 shows me burst hit chance 95% in both cases in some particular situation?

I don't think so.

4) Burst critical is determined for the whole burst, not each bullet separately, right?

Can't see how it would make sense any other way.

I sometimes take Better Criticals perk.
Per says: "Of the two types of .44 ammo, FMJ is marginally better unless you count on getting lots of no-armour criticals, in which case the JHP delivers more raw damage."
I take it I should go with JHP 100% of the time, right?

I don't think you can go far wrong, no. Maybe there's some monster type that doesn't give generous critical hits, but they'll die eventually just the same.

From that formula I conclude that I can get the exact same hit chances in any situation with much lower PE if I compensate by adding ((PE difference)*8) skill points to the weapon skill. Right?

Pretty much.

 

[Kanhef]

I did some calculations (results here) which show that for the most part, AP ammo sucks. FMJ is okay, but not as good as JHP. Exceptions are needler cartridges and rockets, which might be mistakes by the programmers.

The only places where AP ammo can do more damage than JHP is on targets with high (50%+) damage resistance and a relatively low damage threshold.

 

[ints]

Apparently it's more offensive on some monitors other than my own. I know that goes for some of the other backgrounds I use on my site.

Hehe, just kidding, didn't mean to offend (there was an easy cure for my 'problem' anyway). You've put countless hours of work into that guide and thousands of players have benefited from it. I guess that no one has the right to criticize if they don't pay for it.

From that formula I conclude that I can get the exact same hit chances in any situation with much lower PE if I compensate by adding ((PE difference)*8) skill points to the weapon skill. Right?

Pretty much.

I must be tired, forgot the main point. Anyway, just tested with the savegame editor and confirmed that at least the PE*8 part is exactly the same in FO2.

 

[Lord Elden]

If you miss, nothing hits anything. If you hit, then if your target is in the hex closest to you, all bullets hit, otherwise a third of them hit.

I seem to recall that you sometimes hit the intended target with some bullets of a burst even if it says "You missed".

 

[ints]

Btw, while spending the last day reading this forum I also stumbled across some modders' discussions. Didn't delve into those topics much but I seem to remember something about being able to extract FO files to readable scripts / source code. Ain't this the solution for all my problems? Just extract all -> go search for the stuff I'm interested in or is it somewhat limited what you can extract? Guess so, otherwise you guys would already know _everything_.

 

[Nimrod]

Some things are hardcoded in the exe which are difficult/impossible to decipher with 100% certainty.

 

[ocelot]

Hi ints. I don't know anything about modding either. And, like you, I have to wonder why people have not dug out ALL this information already, if they have the means. Either they're not that interested in the combat aspects in the game, or there is lots of info that cannot be found there or is very hard to pinpoint.

Firstly, you seem to imply that there is logic to the fact that corpses block bullets. In my opinion, there is none, but it's just a bloody retarded bug. If there was logic to it, a large corpse, like that of a tough deathclaw or a centaur, would give a negative modifier to your change to hit. A small corpse would give no modifier, or a very slight one. The stupid way it works, however, is that there is no apparent modifier to your chance to hit, but if your target is standing on a dead critter, or the dead critter is between you and your target, the dead critter absorbs 95% of the rounds, and your actual target typically only gets hit by a single round. IMO this is one of the worst bugs of all in Fallout 2, and unfortunately it seems to be so hardcoded in the engine that it's almost impossible to fix. Fallout 1 did not have it. This bug makes burst weapons much less useful than they should be. When you're aware of the bug, though, you can often maneuver yourself so as to avoid the problem. If you're cornered by charging enemies, though, there will be a point when you have to stop using a burst weapon because you're surrounded by corpses and it will be useless.

Secondly, I don't think anyone knows for sure how exactly bursts work. That there is a cone is certain. That burst weapons are most effective at point-blank range is certain. However, what is not certain is whether some weapons have a narrower damage cone than others. I heard such a claim, heh, probably in the last millennium, when there was debate on these very message boards about which burst weapon is the best one. I think there's no way to confirm or deny it though.
I believe the 95% hit chance means each bullet has a 95% chance to hit. At long range, it means your burst has a 95% chance of being centered on your target, but because of the cone, that does not mean 95% of the rounds hit. The longer the range, the greater the waste, unless there are other opponents around your target to catch the rest.
The critical hit damage modifiers absolutely only apply to the burst damage as a whole, not to each bullet individually. There is no question whatsoever.

As you might have inferred from Kanhef's post, .44 Magnum JHP is ALWAYS better than .44 Magnum FMJ. While .44 FMJ is still good ammo, .44 JHP is one of the very best ammo types in the game. Its adverse DR MOD of 20 is the best of all types of JHP, and does little to offset the great DMG MOD of 2/1.
Since you like the .44 Magnum, let's take an example. With the .44 JHP, against someone wearing the best armor in the game, APA mkII, an average Magnum shot does 3hp of damage. With .44 FMJ it does no damage at all. Against Combat armor, the difference is 10hp versus 8hp. On Metal Armor, 13hp versus 10hp. On Leather Jacket, 18hp versus 15hp.
Like was stated earlier, the only case where FMJ would be better is against an enemy with a very high DR and a very low or no DT. There are none to my knowledge. The only way to achieve that is to find an unarmored critter and pump two doses of Psycho in it, and then start shooting your Magnum or Desert Eagle at it. Then .44 FMJ would outperform the FMJ.

You can easily calculate which ammo is best for a weapon in most cases. The DMG MOD is a multiplier to the weapon's damage rating, the DR MOD adds or subtracts from the opponent's damage resistance. The game developers were in such a great hurry to finish the game that they completely messed up the ammo balance of the game, making AP ammo completely useless with the negative DMG MOD. As Kanhef stated, exceptions are the HN AP Needler Cartridge and AP rockets, which are excellent ammunition. Of other JHP ammunition, 10mm is also quite excellent, almost as good as .44 JHP. 5mm JHP is much worse, with a DR MOD of 35 which makes any weapon using it nearly useless against Enclave armor, boosting their DR MOD up to 90%.
I am certain that the HN AP Needler Cartridge, which by the way is the best type of ammunition in the game, wasn't made as good as it is by a mistake on part of the developers. It is very scarce and very expensive, just like two of the other great ammo types, 4.7mm Caseless and 2mm EC. What is more, even its description says 'incredibly sharp', indicating that the devs indeed intended it as an especially efficient cartridge. While the Ammo Fix Mod for this game seemed good in other respects, attempting to strike a balance between AP and JHP, I disagree with the choice of treating HN AP needles as JHP and giving it the same negative modifiers, as it seems obvious to me that the makers wanted it to be precious ammo of exceptional quality, just like 2mm and 4.7mm.

 

[Kanhef]

The only way to achieve that is to find an unarmored critter and pump two doses of Psycho in it, and then start shooting your Magnum or Desert Eagle at it.

I nearly fell off my chair laughing at that image. Thanks.

And I agree that the 'dead bodies block bullets' bug is a PITA. Even large, multihex critters (molerats, big deathclaws, etc.) are pretty flat when they're dead. If the place in the code that determines what gets hit could be found, I'd think a simple "if (critter.isDead()) {do nothing}" check would fix it.

 

[Kanhef]

Another table for the damage actual weapons do. You'll need to view it in a fixed-width program (Notepad, TextEdit, etc.) for things to line up properly.

 

[ocelot]

Another table for the damage actual weapons do. You'll need to view it in a fixed-width program (Notepad, TextEdit, etc.) for things to line up properly.

Cool table. Some things I want to point out:

The weapon damage as multiplied by the ammo's DMG MOD is rounded down. Therefore, the Gauss Rifle's true damage range (notwithstanding armor) is 48-64, not 48-65. 43 x 3/2 equals 64,5, which is rounded down. The same goes for the Vindicator Minigun, the actual range (for each round) is 21-28 because 19 x 3/2 = 28,5 is rounded down. Etc...

Furthermore, some weapons have hard-coded modifiers that affect the damage they do.
For instance, the .223 Pistol actually has a DT MOD of what I believe is -5/6 or possibly 1/6. I suspect the former. Therefore, its damage range against Advanced Power Armor is actually 12-18, against Combat Armor, 16-24, and so on.
I also recently found that though the Magneto-Laser Pistol has the same damage rating as the regular variant, it seems to completely ignore DT. So against Combat Armor, for instance, it would do 4-9 points of damage as opposed to the regular Laser Pistol's 1-6.

I know there are built-in modifiers in other weapons as well. I want to look into it some more once I have the time. I'm quite sure that the Improved Flamer has a DT MOD as well, but I haven't had a chance to look into it yet.

 

[Kanhef]

Now that I think about it, I probably should have been rounding everything down. Integer division and all that.

For weapon-specific modifiers, there are also the "weapon penetrate" and "weapon flameboy" special perks that are probably set by some weapons. Feel free to make revisions to that table.

 

[Per]

A theory on Flameboy is that its purpose was to only allow the Improved Flamer to load improved fuel, and that it doesn't actually do anything to penetration or damage.