Guns: are they necesary for home defense or a public menace?

c0ldst33ltrs4u

Vault Dweller
Just the other day I saw "Runaway Jury". That movie makes you think... I mean guns are everywhere, they end up in the wrong hands and they are used in schools by some really fuckedup kid with an issue who opens fire in the hallways or in the classrooms, killing innocent kids. Maybe civilians shouldn't be allowed to own guns since they end up hurting so many innocent bystanders.
On the other hand guns can be very useful in home defense since the intruder may also have one. You can't just deny people their right to bear arms.
So guns can save lives or end up making more trouble than they are worth. I'd like to hear your say on this.
 
Before this leads to where it probably will, let me add that this issue has been addressed before-

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1969&highlight=guns

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=351&highlight=guns

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1924&highlight=guns
And elsewhere.

In the past this has led to some rather testy posting and we did have a rule of "No more Gun Threads"

However, I am going to allow this, provided that we mind our manners.

If it gets nasty, it will get locked.
 
Guns are used for defense about 50 times (or more) as often as they're used to kill anyone, according to studies done by Kleck and others. Additionally, those studies also indicate about 500,000 more defensive uses per year than uses in violent crime.That makes the answer pretty obvious, in my opinion.
 
I think people are entitled to guns. People use guns for hobbies, protection, and the like. However, the problem is that illegal gun trafficking is running rampant. It needs to be strictly policied and laws need to be enforced.
 
Did you hear that news story of the Baltimore Ravens player who miraclously survived a home invasion. I'll see if I can find the story somewhere, but apparently, somebody broke into is house and fired around 20 shots and chased them around trying to kill them. He then ran into a getaway car where someone drove him off.

I would very much like to have a firearm in a situation like this since you can't really call the cops as you are running around for your damn life! Now, I don't need an assault rifle, but some kind of shotgun/handgun/hunting rifle would be very handy.

Ban guns, so what. You think the criminals would care if you ban them or not? Ever hear of the black market? Or knives? You going to ban pencils too, as I can kill the guy sitting next me with my pencil. How about shoes? I could hurt someone with my shoe? Banning guns would be worse than not banning them. Altogether banning them that is. You can ban assault rifles for all I care. But small firearms like handguns, or even shotguns and hunting rifles shouldn't be banned. Well, hunting rifles I guess I would allow to go without protest, since I don't hunt, but a handgun? No thank you! I would protest shotguns being banned however, since they can also serve for home protection. But guns like Uzis and M-16 and such, can be banned and outlawed for all I care.
 
You can't just deny people their right to bear arms.
A) This right is not universal, but mostly limited to the USA.
B) You can, if you get a two-thirds majority(I think) to alter the US constitution.

Guns are used for defense about 50 times (or more) as often as they're used to kill anyone, according to studies done by Kleck and others. Additionally, those studies also indicate about 500,000 more defensive uses per year than uses in violent crime.That makes the answer pretty obvious, in my opinion.
Okay, before anyone says anything like this(from either side) I have to add the following:

There are NO conclusive inquiries that have been done about guns which can be accepted by both sides, all of the possible inquiries are disputed(as could be seen in the previous gun threads), and frankly, without those, there is no evidence. In the end, it all comes down to:
A) Reason.
B) Personal preference

Now, for what I have to say:

Only a few days ago, a 16 year old shot a teacher, because he was pissed that he had gotten kicked out of school. It was done in a fit of rage, and now the boy apparently thinks he's done a terrible thing, thinking that he not only destroyed the teacher's life, but also his own.
The boy obviously was illegally owning the gun, but it is things like these that do show why there are gun laws, and why guns should be policed.
Now, before someone comes in and says "But guns are already the most policed object in the USA", you have to remember that something being the most policed, is not a reason to not increase the policing.
Some reaonable(or at least reasonable in my opinion) laws on guns:
1. YOu need a permit to own a gun.
2. You need to have no history of violent crime.
3. Only handguns may be used for protection.
4. You may not walk around with a gun, without a GOOD explanation(eg. "I'm moving to my new house")
5. Rifles may be owned, but only for sports, and a seperate permit from handguns needs to be obtained.
6. In gun stores guns and ammo need to be behind bullet proof locked casing.
7. In gun stores guns and ammo need to be stored seperately, and guns may not be loaded.
8. In houses, guns need to be stored in places where children cannot reach them.
9. In houses, guns may not be stored while loaded.

Any comments?
 
Seems pretty reasonable to me, although I would qualify "only handguns can be used for protection" quite a bit.

Also Gywdion's citing of Kleck is not without controversy. The ratio of guns being used for violence vs guns for self-defense is highly contestable and subject to different types of statistical analysis. That said, Kleck's work is better than some others, primarily because he was one of the first to actually do this testing.

Alas we have discussed that before.

What worries me is the movement of guns between state lines- or how loosely regulated guns in one state can move over the border to the a more tightly regulated states. We need national if reasonable controls.
 
Sander said:
1. YOu need a permit to own a gun.

Britain instituted a system like this sometime around WWI. The problem is that the Home Office secretly changed the conditions under which the permits were issued. By 196... 9 (I believe) the official policy was that no one had any valid reason to own a handgun. This change was made entirely without public debate or knowledge. Since gun permits would likely be handled at the local level, and you're looking at probably thousands of jurisdictions across America, there's simply no way to ensure that something similar can't happen here.

In California, there's a system in place through which some people can get concealed carry permits. These are "may-issue" permits, in other words permits that issued at the discretion of local officials. In California's case, I believe the local Sheriffs make the decision. In this example, we see a great deal of favoritism. Campaign contributors can get these permits, but virtually no one else can.

2. You need to have no history of violent crime.

A reasonable requirement already in place.

3. Only handguns may be used for protection.

This I definitely don't understand. The best home defense weapon depending on your situation would probably be a pump shotgun or a light-weight carbine, maybe an AR15-pattern rifle. Handguns in general are considered to be fairly anemic should you ever be forced to actually use one against a person.

4. You may not walk around with a gun, without a GOOD explanation(eg. "I'm moving to my new house")

While it would be very considerate of criminals to make dates for their crimes, those who shirk the law are often total jerks. We cannot predict the time or place we may be in a situation that requires us to defend ourselves, therefore it is prudent to give law-abiding citizens the ability to carry concealed firearms to defend themselves.

I understand why people may be taken aback at this at first. It seems like there are a lot of opportunities for disagreements that could potentially escalate into deadly situations when guns are involved. However, it has been amply demonstrated that this is not the case. Currently 44 states have some form of concealed carry, and 35 of these are 'shall-issue' (everyone who passes the background check gets a permit) states or with even looser restrictions. Both Vermont and Alaska have no restrictions on carrying concealed at all. If you can own a gun you can carry. The experience of these states has been that those who do get the permits tend to be the most law-abiding segment of the population. In Florida, for example, well over 200,000 permits have been issued, and fewer than 50 have been revoked. You don't have to be a math whiz to realize that's not even close to 1%.

The reason for this become obvious when you stop and think about it. Those who would carry guns to commit crimes will be willing to break the law, so only law-abiding citizens would get the permits. Vermont and Alaska, being states with very low crime rates anyway, probably decided they just weren't worth the hassle.

5. Rifles may be owned, but only for sports, and a seperate permit from handguns needs to be obtained.

If the gun owner can pass the background checks and whatnot for one gun, it just seems excessive to require them again for another type. I don't believe this has any practical value.


These seem fairly reasonable, although counters made from bullet-resistant material may be cost-prohibitive.

8. In houses, guns need to be stored in places where children cannot reach them.

Things like storage probably should not be mandated, as we cannot anticipate every situation and thus may unfairly exlude law-abiding citizens. Those who would leave guns lying around probably would simply ignore these laws anyway.

9. In houses, guns may not be stored while loaded.

That would make them virtually useless for self-defense.

welsh said:
subject to different types of statistical analysis

As are all statistics, unfortunately. If we accept statistics as any indicator, we must resign ourselves to make do with less than perfect statistics. I'll say this much for him, at least Kleck's defensive gun use numbers have been confirmed by other studies.
 
I've got my Bushmaster XM-15 E2S A3 under my bed in a guncase with three thirty-round magazines loaded with 28 rounds each.

Its for home protection.



...I sleep easy at night even with my doors unlocked.
 
Britain instituted a system like this sometime around WWI. The problem is that the Home Office secretly changed the conditions under which the permits were issued. By 196... 9 (I believe) the official policy was that no one had any valid reason to own a handgun. This change was made entirely without public debate or knowledge. Since gun permits would likely be handled at the local level, and you're looking at probably thousands of jurisdictions across America, there's simply no way to ensure that something similar can't happen here.

In California, there's a system in place through which some people can get concealed carry permits. These are "may-issue" permits, in other words permits that issued at the disgression of local officials. In California's case, I believe the local Sheriffs make the decision. In this example, we see a great deal of favoritism. Campaign contributors can get these permits, but virtually no one else can.
While I can't speak for the way it would work in the USA, I did not say that a flawed legal system should be put into place. The fact that it didn't work in Britain because of a flawed legal system, doesn't mean it cannot work at all.

This I definitely don't understand. The best home defense weapon depending on your situation would probably be a pump shotgun or a light-weight carbine, maybe an AR15-pattern rifle. Handguns in general are considered to be fairly anemic should you ever be forced to actually use one against a person.
Well, the point was that handguns are not as destructive, and not as easy to shoot a load of people with in a short period of time, as bigger guns. But my knowledge of the effects of certain guns are a bit inadequate.

While it would be very considerate of criminals to make dates for their crimes, those who shirk the law are often total jerks. We cannot predict the time or place we may be in a situation that requires us to defend ourselves, therefore it is prudent to give law-abiding citizens the ability to carry concealed firearms to defend themselves.

I understand why people may be taken aback at this at first. It seems like there are a lot of opportunities for disagreements that could potentially escalate into deadly situations when guns are involved. However, it has been amply demonstrated that this is not the case. Currently 44 states have some form of concealed carry, and 35 of these are 'shall-issue' (everyone who passes the background check gets a permit) states or with even looser restrictions. Both Vermont and Alaska have no restrictions on carrying concealed at all. If you can own a gun you can carry. The experience of these states has been that those who do get the permits tend to be the most law-abiding segment of the population. In Florida, for example, well over 200,000 permits have been issued, and fewer than 50 have been revoked. You don't have to be a math whiz to realize that's not even close to 1%.

The reason for this become obvious when you stop and think about it. Those who would carry guns to commit crimes will be willing to break the law, so only law-abiding citizens would get the permits. Vermont and Alaska, being states with very low crime rates anyway, probably decided they just weren't worth the hassle.
This could very well be true, but I am a principal opposer of the right to carry concealed arms. For one, because concealed arms can be unsafe. Another reason is that I feel that carrying around a gun in your purse so you can fend off possible assailants, will probably lead to you dying sooner than the criminal, simply because the criminal will usually already have the weapon in his hands. And accidents always happen.

If the gun owner can pass the background checks and whatnot for one gun, it just seems excessive to require them again for another type. I don't believe this has any practical value.
Well, no. Because I didn't thionk that background checks alone were good enough, you would need to be skilled in the use and maintenance of the guns at the very lest, to assure that there will be no accidents.

Things like storage probably should not be mandated, as we cannot anticipate every situation and thus may unfairly exlude law-abiding citizens. Those who would leave guns lying around probably would simply ignore these laws anyway.
True, although the addition of such a law would add the possiblity to be able to convict people of negligence when their kid gets their hands on a gun to start shooting people.

That would make them virtually useless for self-defense.
Not true. I purposely didn't say that ammo should be stored seperately, but I did say that guns may not be loaded, because that would not only stop accidents, but also stop kids from accidentally firing a weapon they thought was empty(This happened a few years back, when a police officer forgot to empty the chambver f his gun and took it to show it to some kids. One of the kids thought it would be cool to pull the trigger. Fortunately, the bullet hit the wall).
 
Well, on both sides there are some issues to think about. I think extended point-counterpoint is not conducive to reasonable discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

Regarding the Great Britain analogy I drew earlier, for those of you interested in an historical examination of guns, law, and crime, I recommend you find a copy of Joyce Lee Malcolm's Guns and Violence: The English Experience. I'm reading this right now and its pretty interesting. She examines what English crime was like in the late-middleages before guns became common, and then looks at the evolution of crime and law as guns become more prolific. She then briefly examines the modern situation in America and attempts to make conclusions about guns and gun control based on these comparisons. It's pretty good so far.
 
Fair enough, Gwydion.

And another one for my reading list. Woohoo! I wonder if I'll ever get through it if it keeps expanding like this....
 
Instead of arguing im just going to say

guns are dangerous... so is booze. But i like both and no one is going to take them away from me, at least not in this lifetime.
 
Gwydion said:
Do you use M193 rounds?

Nope, I use cheapo PMC rounds I get at Big 5.

It doesn't matter though; I'm sure if someone breaks into my house and gets greeted by me and my AR-15, just the sight of a weapon like that is enough of a deterrence to most people. I doubt I'd even have to shoot them for them to get my point.
 
Well, you can get M193 in Winchester White Box. If they don't have it at Big 5, Walmart may well have it. It think its usually labeled Q3131 whereas Q3131A is M855. In my opinion the fragmentation you see with the M193 is crucial for a marginal round like .223. You're correct in that you probably won't ever have to use the gun, but if you did, you ought to have something that you can trust to do the job.
 
This could very well be true, but I am a principal opposer of the right to carry concealed arms. For one, because concealed arms can be unsafe. Another reason is that I feel that carrying around a gun in your purse so you can fend off possible assailants, will probably lead to you dying sooner than the criminal, simply because the criminal will usually already have the weapon in his hands. And accidents always happen.
You have a point there, but there are many cases in wich if one of the victims of a small robbery, (ex. one or two guys decide they are going to rob a gas station), had a concealed gun bloodshed would could been averted. I especially recall seeing this interview of a woman whose parents were shot during the robbery of a diner just because the robber got nervous. She owned a gun, she knew how to use it, but she had left it in the glove compartment of her car, wich was parked in front of the diner.
That story makes you think... although I am sure that something should be done along the line of asking future gun owners to take courses where they can learn how to properly handle a gun.
I also heard that a guy managed to shoot his young daughter who was had returned from a party early in the morning and was trying to sneak into the house. That was tragic, the guy heard something, panicked, got his gun and shot the shadowy figure who was sneaking through the house towards the bedrooms.
I must say that I am agains guns with a quick rate of fire and/or a big clip, more than say 20-25 bullets. These guns are overkill when we are talking about self defense. Shotguns are good, but the one who uses them must know how due to the great damage potential of these gus, especially when using buck shot.
I think "non-lethal" weapons are a good alternative too, although they aren't as harmless as the manufacturers want us to think. These weapons can be lethal if they end up being used on small children or even adolescents.
And I totaly agree with those who say that as long as the criminals can easily get their hans on various types of guns the honest, law abiding citizens should have a fair chance to own one too. What should be carefully policed and controlled is the production and distribution of semi-automatic and automatic guns wich, IMO, only the SWAT, the National Guard and the Army should have. Those guns should be carefully monitored.
 
I must say that I am agains guns with a quick rate of fire and/or a big clip, more than say 20-25 bullets.

This is the second time I've seen this in this thread, so I feel like I have to address it now. There's a lot of buzz about so-called 'assault weapons'. When Bill Clinton signed the 1994 ant-crime bill into law, he told us it would make us safer. Diane Finestein (sp?) told us these were the guns of choice for criminals, and that no 'real sportsman' has any valid use for them. Even the name itself conjures up images of fully-automatic rifles, spraying bullets all over the place.

The reality is that none of this is true.

After Bill Clinton signed the law, he commissioned a series of studies to determine the effects of the law. It personally strikes me as odd considering that he claimed to 'know' that this law would make us safer, but he did it anyone. When one of the early studies came in around 1997 or so and revealed that there was no solid evidence indicating that the law had done much of anything, the rest of the studies were cancelled. I don't know why Clinton cancelled the other studies, but the simple chronology of the events should be enough to get you thinking.

If we listened to the politicians who wrote and sponsored this bill, people like Chuck Schumer and Diane Finestein, it would sound like these weapons are everywhere on our streets; these guns are the favorites of criminals. Drug dealers, gang members, even pimps are hiding these things under their fur coats, albeit plated with gold and encrusted with rhinestones. Of course, this is also a little white lie. Just a little one. Turns out these guns were used in about one percent (1%) of crimes. The reality is that rather than using $800 AR15s that are three feet long, criminals have a tendency to prefer cheap, concealable handguns.

Consider the other side of the story, that no sportsman has any use for these. I have met people that have turned AR15s into great long-distance varmint rifles, though, which is great for those land-damaging pests who tend to be very shy of humans. Far from being the inaccurate bullet-hoses that groups like the VPC and the Brady Campaign protray them as, these are very nice rifles capable of extremely accurate fire. There are a great many after-market accessories available for them that give the user a great deal of choice in terms of putting together a rifle that works best for them in their situation. While the .223 round is considered a bit too marginal for deer, I've met plenty of people here in Kansas who tell me just about perfect for coyotes at fairly close ranges. And the lightweight, accurate AR15 is a great platform for that round.

What about the AK47 pattern rifles? Those are scary-looking guns. In America especially, they've become associated with Communists and terrorists, but even these rifles have their place. The round they use, 7.62x34mm, is ballistically similar to 30-30 Winchester, meaning that with proper bullet selection it can be used to take deer in relatively close ranges, like the woody areas in the Ozarks. The rugged reliability and solid construction of these rifles combined with the affordable price (Around $300 or so) means that you can trek these guns through places you wouldn't bring your $600 Remington brush gun, and you can be confident that they'll function flawlessly as you do it.

A lot of sportsman use these weapons: even Bill Clinton did a hunting photo op with a shotgun in an 'assault weapon' configuration just weeks before the ban was enacted. So much for that claim.

It seems unlikely that these politicians would want to ban these weapons for no reason. With a name like 'assault weapons' it seems like these should be fast-firing, powerful guns. Once again we see that reality is different than the picture that politicians paint for us. These guns fire no faster and are no more powerful than other perfectly legitimate hunting firearms. In fact, both the AR15 and AKM patterned rifles fire less powerful rounds than deer rifles. Something in .308 or 7mm-08 would kick the crap out of an AR15 in terms of the amount of energy the projectile has. And your expensive Browning hunting rifle fires just as fast as any AR15 or AKM you can buy in a store. There is functionally no difference between these 'assault weapons' and many other guns not banned by the bill.

It is true, though, that there is a good reason these guns were banned. Here's the dark secret in the whole thing: it was politically feasible. Government studies have indicated that there are 44 million gun owners in this nation. Since the vast majority of those are voting-eligible adults, politicians who support gun control have to tread lightly. I'm not speculating here; this isn't guesswork. Diane Finestein, the senator who helped author the assault weapons ban, came on 60 minutes and said if she could have gotten the votes to ban every gun in America, ("Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them in" were her very words) then she would have. Instead of writing legislation that she knows wouldn't pass, she picked a group of guns that look scary and get hyped up in Hollywood. She helped create this fictional class of weapons because they were guns she thought she could ban. At this point, it's just about the only motivation that makes sense.

But here's a chance to show your quality. These politicians lied to us: when they told us the ban would makes us safer, when they told us these guns were the choice of criminals, when they told us that no sportsman would use them. They count on the fact that the electorate is a gullible audience that won't research the facts on their own. Do the research. Look at the studies, and look at the facts. Then you'll see through the bullshit and the hype.
 
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