Hit Points? WTF!!!

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[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-00 AT 04:44AM (GMT)[p]Allright, maybe im the only one, but hit-points are dumb. Please feel free to flame me at will.

When was the last time you heard of someone in the *real world* gettin pegged by a .223 round in the head, only to walk at you and blast back with his desert eagle??? seems at least he should stand there for a second dazed... those .223 carry a helluva kick.

seems like a much better way to show the results of wounds would be something akin to what is in the MW3 role-play book. For those unfamiliar with the system (as im sure the majority of you are) each weapon still has a damage rating (ex. 4-3d6) where the first number is its AP value, and the second determines the damage. the severity of the wound is based on the result of the 3d6. say the weapon does 12 damage, that would be equivalent to a level 3 wound... aka a moderate flesh wound the bleeds, and impaires use. depending on where hit, each level of wounds carries a certain set of results.
A moderate flesh wound in the head might be gettin shot in the mouth... teeth shatter and bullet exits through your cheek, whereas a moderate flesh wound to the leg would greatly impair movement. each set of armor has its armor value, say for combat armor lvl 5 againts ballistic weapons (6 againt melee, 2 against energy and explosions etc). since the weapon only has a AP of 4 (5 - 4 = 1) the wound would be downgraded from a lvl 3 to a lvl 2.

its kinda complex to relate the intriquicies of a new combat damage system in a single post, but needless to say, if you get shot with a shotgun at point-blank, in the face, without some seriously thick polymer-plexi glass you will be really fucked up. this didnt happen at all in FO and it pissed me off... i mean how the fuck does a deathclaw survive getting shot by a HE rocket? and you pop some unsuspecting NCR guard in the eye balls, and hes still fighting back?

anyways this would better show the reality of combat and help keep fallout from becoming a BOZAR ground... if it takes 1 or 2 shots from that un-armored civilians .50 desert eagle you wont go raping his wife or stealing his purse.

to summarize, almost all CRPGs use hitpoints, they are stupid. it wouldnt be much harder to implement a WV (wound value) system than it would be a HP system in a CRPG, and they should seriously question why they are still using HPs. Who thought of the dumb things anyways??

p.s. fallout kicks ass, even if they stick with HP it will be a great game, but it would revolutionize the RPG market, and draw a lot of new fans im sure. ~> so dont tell me its not profitable Xotor, CRPGs should be evolving, and this is a step in the right direction.
 
<< When was the last time you heard of someone in the *real world* gettin pegged by a .223 round in the head, only to walk at you and blast back with his desert eagle??? seems at least he should stand there for a second dazed... those .223 carry a helluva kick. >>

Since when in the real world are gun fights turn-based? Since when are games better for being extremely realistic?

<< i mean how the fuck does a deathclaw survive getting shot by a HE rocket? and you pop some unsuspecting NCR guard in the eye balls, and hes still fighting back? >>

Because, games are unrealistic. It seems your main focus is on combat (what else are HP for), so you must be fairly concerned there. Yet, you want it to be realistic.

Do you realize how quickly your character would be killed if the game goes realistic? They already had to tweak Fallout so that your character didn't get critically hit as much. They decided it wasn't fun having to constantly reload. <sarcasm> I can't imagine what prompted that decision, that's just crazy. </sarcasm>

<< to summarize, almost all CRPGs use hitpoints, they are stupid. it wouldnt be much harder to implement a WV (wound value) system than it would be a HP system in a CRPG, and they should seriously question why they are still using HPs. >>

Because hit points are familiar. Just like levels and stats are familiar. I can't imagine an RPG selling well if it didn't have HP. It would be a turn-off for too many people.

<< Who thought of the dumb things anyways?? >>

One, or more, person/people who created D&D.

Skie
 
Fallout is an RPG, and RPGs use hitpoints! It has always been like this. RPGs aren't supposed to be realistic. In real life, you'll die in one shot. If this would be in Fallout too, the game would get frustrating and loose all its fun.
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-00 AT 00:41AM (GMT)[p] What should solve this is a "control screen" type display that shows options for things like Hit Point Mode or Wound Value Mode. This would make the game larger in MB, but at the rate in which technology is increasing,people will~~(most likely)~~be able to support it. (Hell, Diablo II was about 1.5 GB and that sold good.)
 
>Allright, maybe im the only one,
>but hit-points are dumb.
>Please feel free to flame
>me at will.
>
>When was the last time you
>heard of someone in the
>*real world* gettin pegged by
>a .223 round in the
>head, only to walk at
>you and blast back with
>his desert eagle??? seems
>at least he should stand
>there for a second dazed...
>those .223 carry a helluva
>kick.
>
>seems like a much better way
>to show the results of
>wounds would be something akin
>to what is in the
>MW3 role-play book. For
>those unfamiliar with the system
>(as im sure the majority
>of you are) each weapon
>still has a damage rating
>(ex. 4-3d6) where the first
>number is its AP value,
>and the second determines the
>damage. the severity of
>the wound is based on
>the result of the 3d6.
> say the weapon does
>12 damage, that would be
>equivalent to a level 3
>wound... aka a moderate flesh
>wound the bleeds, and impaires
>use. depending on where
>hit, each level of wounds
>carries a certain set of
>results.
>A moderate flesh wound in the
>head might be gettin shot
>in the mouth... teeth shatter
>and bullet exits through your
>cheek, whereas a moderate flesh
>wound to the leg would
>greatly impair movement. each
>set of armor has its
>armor value, say for combat
>armor lvl 5 againts ballistic
>weapons (6 againt melee, 2
>against energy and explosions etc).
> since the weapon
>only has a AP of
>4 (5 - 4 =
>1) the wound would be
>downgraded from a lvl 3
>to a lvl 2.
>
>its kinda complex to relate the
>intriquicies of a new combat
>damage system in a single
>post, but needless to say,
>if you get shot with
>a shotgun at point-blank, in
>the face, without some seriously
>thick polymer-plexi glass you will
>be really fucked up.
>this didnt happen at all
>in FO and it pissed
>me off... i mean how
>the fuck does a deathclaw
>survive getting shot by a
>HE rocket? and you
>pop some unsuspecting NCR guard
>in the eye balls, and
>hes still fighting back?
>
>anyways this would better show the
>reality of combat and help
>keep fallout from becoming a
>BOZAR ground... if it takes
>1 or 2 shots from
>that un-armored civilians .50 desert
>eagle you wont go raping
>his wife or stealing his
>purse.
>
>to summarize, almost all CRPGs use
>hitpoints, they are stupid.
>it wouldnt be much harder
>to implement a WV (wound
>value) system than it would
>be a HP system in
>a CRPG, and they should
>seriously question why they are
>still using HPs. Who
>thought of the dumb things
>anyways??
>
>p.s. fallout kicks ass, even if they stick with HP it will be a great game, but it would revolutionize the RPG market, and draw a lot of new fans im sure. ~> so dont tell me its not profitable Xotor, CRPGs should be evolving, and this is a step in the right direction.

Where have I said that? I just don't want hack and slash or shoot-em-ups. I do wish to note that RPGs do not gross as high as action games however.

Pesonally, I think with damage and all, it should be where guns are extremely rare, and extremely fatal if it hits you.

A Desert Eagle would take your head off in real life. The Avenger minigun is, in real life, a 600+ pound gun used to destroy missiles on battleships. Guns are not realistic enough in Fallout.

Only in the Rainbow Six series have weapons really been portrayed realistically. In Fallout bullets do not cause infection, you don't have to extract them, and when you're hit you're not physically shocked or wounded. Bullets should be fatal.

-Xotor-

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Why hit points...

Think of it like this...

Hit points are basically more like the player's ability to handle combat situations. When the player gets more hit points, he's not really getting more "life", he's just better at moving in such a way as to reduce the amount of damage a weapon dishes out to him.

Rather than scaling the damage of the weapons towards the experience of the player, it's just easier to scale the player towards how many "hits" he can take.
 
RE: Why hit points...

This whole non-HP damage thing always boils down to the same thing. The original poster himself spoke of downstaging damage as done in some system (I know Shadowrun does it). If the HP would be displayed in a percentage of the full amount of HP, you would lose your HP, while you may survive at more attacks at higher levels of XP, just like in downstaging damage.
 
RE: Why hit points...

The way I see it... The only real hits are critical hits. I mean you critically hit someone in the head, they die, or get hurt really bad and go down, you hit the in the torso they go down. Now Criticals that don't cause any dammage were simply stoppled by armor. The non critical hits are simply 'scratches' you know, your ear get's blown off or something. I think HP is dammage and pain level put together, once it runs out you collapse.
 
I have to agree with you that the Wound Value system would be a very cool advancement in RPGs but the goal of the Fallout Series isn't to be realistic, its to be fun. I laugh more in the Fallout games than I do in all the other games I play put together. The game is about a serious topic but the designers obviously had a lot of fun with it, and it shows in the gameplay and design. I would hate to see the series name tarnished because they spent too much time on that one element and spent less time making the game enjoyable.
 
>I have to agree with you
>that the Wound Value system
>would be a very cool
>advancement in RPGs but the
>goal of the Fallout Series
>isn't to be realistic, its
>to be fun. I laugh
>more in the Fallout games
>than I do in all
>the other games I play
>put together.

I dont think your laughing because of the lack of realism, more that the situations you find yourself in are amusing, satirical, or "unusual".

When i first got FO, i went straight to shady sands, clicked on my gun, and blew the whole village away. Later in the game, this tactic of blasting eveything in sight could be repeated over and over again. In the storyline, 1 man with a gun did what an entire army of mutants couldnt. Basically kill anything other than themselves.

>The game is
>about a serious topic but
>the designers obviously had a
>lot of fun with it,
>and it shows in the
>gameplay and design. I would
>hate to see the series
>name tarnished because they spent
>too much time on that
>one element and spent less
>time making the game enjoyable.

I would definetly prefer an enjoyable game to one thrown together. changeing the combat system would greatly de-emphasize combat due to its lethality in real life. this would provide even greater opportunites for better gameplay.

The #1 thing that bothered me about fallout was looking at the Kills section of the character screen after completing the game. my loner character who collected 0 NPC's, managed to send 273 men and 65 women to the grave, not to mention scores of mutants, radscorpions, geckos, and other life-forms.

Combat should still exist, and a combat character should have the same opportunities to excel as other characters, however in a post-apocalyptic world, getting shot would be a horrible thing. getting shot by a mini-gun should kill you. this didnt happen in fallout, my character probably took over 1000 rounds of ammo, only to keep walking and fighting without even slowing down.
 
Apparently you've never played Shadow Watch. The main reason it sucks so bad is due to how lethal getting shot is in the game.

If Fallout 3 had "realistic" damage, I wouldn't buy it.
 
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