I'm here to talk about unarmed skill

M

Manco

First time out of the vault
Howdy all, I'm a new poster, but not new to fallout by a longshot.
So, I thought my little contribution here would touch on F3's h to h system. Before I get into it, I've noticed a tendency for many regulars to use the "slippery slope" arguement to defend their ideas. Like saying that beefing up the fighting engine would morph our beloved F3 into Mortal Kombat. Or that using 2 guns would John Woo this thing to hell.

Does anyone who posts here really feel that adding a veriety of punch animations and dmg mods will lead directly to Mortal Kombat? Do you think that the artists and designers are so out of touch as to still feel MK is even HALF WAY cool?

Here's the score. Unarmed in Fallout is okay at best, numbingly shallow at worst. The most complex I've seen unarmed in the fallout universe was in the combo drug cocktails/advanced weapon-limb breaking/ knockdown games in FOT. I know bringing up the ole FOT is trouble, but I strongly feel it handled unarmed the best of the 3 existing games. But being the best of 3 bads isn't much. I still has to watch that goddamn punch animation like 7000 times over the course of my fallout career.

It's plain to see J.E. isn't going for OMG SNAKE KICK HADUKEN, but rather an
a.more cinimatic/realistic presentation of unarmed combat.
b.approach allowing visual variety to the gamer, thus increasing fun.
c.Allowing the player choice
d.Balancing unarmed, so that the few of us that like scrappers still have a reason to scrap lategame. (If I have a hig sneak, with high disarm and crippling skills, maybe I might just jump on the miinigun guy)

So I've defended the current team's ideas, but what of my own?

Well, most involve too much work/animations to implement properly, but ones that seem doable that I'd like to see include:
Being able to leave AP at the end of a turn as to use an evade or block. I like giving the player a choice "I can hit mongo 4 times about the nose and mouth and go for the ko... but mongo looks tuff, maybe I should stickem' twice and try to evaid the worst of his next attack, just in case I can't bring'em down this turn".

BUT, it would be TOO easy for the player to allways leave 4 AP in the bank and autoblock the shit out of everything. SO, instead of leaving 4 AP in the bank and hitting END TURN, why not choose between Gaurd HEAD, Gaurd ARMS, Gaurd LEGS. That way, the player will still take dmg from body shots, but have at least a fighting chance of defending against crippling/ko strategy. Also, with the computer using this strategy, fighting don't morph into the "Punch EYES" show. And if you choose "Gaurd Arms" it wouldn't mean a total wiff if the enemy hits it, rather it would be a "Save vs. Cripple" or "Vs. K.O." with increaced AC for the Gaurded area. And in a Rock Paper Sissors fashion, if player chose head, their legs would be vulnerable to criticle dmg. So, in keeping with our "choice" theme, some unarmed guys would aviod the gaurding all together, rather than risk extra dmg.

Something else I'd like to add is "Go for the Ko!". At higher unarmed skills one should be able to decide if this next punch will killem' or knockem' out. If an enemy is down to say, 20 hp, and the player is hittin' for at least 30, we know the fight will end in a bloody death, which can be bad if the player wants to be a "good guy that only fights when he's gotta". As of now, fallout unarmed players are "good guy that beats you untill blood comes out and you explode and also die". I guess alls I'm saying here is if the player has all but finished off the enemy, letem choose how he does it. An intentional KO that leaves sleeping enemy at 1 hp would be good for everything from "leaving that bastard merchant that talked crap alive so we can leave without the whole damn town screaming murder" to "I'm almost done with F3 and I'm bored and let's go ko somebody and plant C4 or drug the hell out of them."

So, thats two ideas. I'm sorry if I'm long winded, I just wanted to make clear I'm a huge fallout fan, but think the unarmed system needs modification for balance, fun, visual variety and player choice.

Hell, WHY NOT GIVE THE PLAYER FULL EXP FOR 1hp KO's? It's the same as killing them, but would allow the player to fight with honor and discression, if thats how they wanted to play.
Obviously, this couldn't work for Bosses, Endgame baddies, and plot advancing baddies that need to die. But shouldn't I be able to Knock some punk behind a building out for talking crap? I don't wanna kill him and have the town hate me forever, I just wanna role play a character that doesn't take crap and yet isn't chaotic evil.

Thanks for this forum, and I can't wait to hear what you guys think.


OO OOOO! Before I go, anyone here read Starman's Sun by Andrea Norton? It's where DEATHCLAWS were ripped off from. Really amazing post WW3 book seriously ahead of its time.

Also, for those that would say "But Manco. this is FALLOUT, not kickman 10'000. Why should the unarmed be as deep as guns?". Well I say if you can't do unarmed justice, leave it out, rather than make me as a player do "punch eyes" 7 million times. Why even have a skill if noone plays it, or must play it begrudgingly?

Manco
 
I like some of your ideas. I really, really hope that no one flames you (really guys, that's very inhospitable for a first-poster).

You can tell by Fallout 2 that the dev team is also focusing on the hand-to-hand players along with the gunslingers. With perks like Bonus HtH Damage + Attacks, Dodger, and others, you can't really say that HtH was ignored.

Some of your ideas have already been implemented. Using your saved up AP's to protect yourself is done automatically when you press End Turn and your AC increases. Guarding for specific body parts would be good if your enemy did Aimed Shots.

Knockout is already a hopeful, fingers-crossed, addition.
 
All right!

Hey, thanks for the feedback!
"You can tell by Fallout 2 that the dev team is also focusing on the hand-to-hand players along with the gunslingers. With perks like Bonus HtH Damage + Attacks, Dodger, and others, you can't really say that HtH was ignored. "

True, it's better than one, but again, the best of two bads ain't so good. It's not terrible, but those additions were exclusively stat/AP based. In Fallout 2 I became a MASTER unarmed fighter, and yet my punch looked very much like the punch I tossed at 65 percent. Now, it can be said that you hold your gun at 200% small guns the same way you hold it at 50%, so why make exceptions for unarmed? Well, if nothing else, the many different guns one comes across offer different stratgeys taking into acount range and reload cost. The other thing it offered was visual variety. This element is hugely important lategame, as in both Fallout 1 and 2, we unarmed players new every frame of "Jab" by heart.

"Some of your ideas have already been implemented. Using your saved up AP's to protect yourself is done automatically when you press End Turn and your AC increases. "

Again, good point, but what I was getting at was just leaving a few AP's in the bank to bulk up one's AC is a teeny bit boring (for some). To make the system deeper, why not include both the current way, as well as the option to choose saving vs. KO or arm/leg break? Now, this assumes that the enemy will worry about called shots, which I hope they do. That was one of FOT's only good points, in multiplayer, some guys went only for arms, others always went for that ko. Others still worried about the legs so their teammates could catch up to the opponent. I think opening up offensive and defensive statgey will do nothing but good for Fallout 3.

Would I add anything else? Ha, only a mini-UFC engine for mounted punches, chokeouts, ect. But even I realize it is both to complex to properly implement with all the creatures of various sizes, as well as it just isn't fallouty enough.

But...

What about moves like a driving tackle? It could cost perhaps 7 or 8 AP, and instead of massive dmg, it could 1.have a higher ko chance than head hit. and 2. Cost enemy AP when they get back up. That could make the difference between the baddy using that stimpack and atempting called shots, they might just have enough AP to stand and shoot once.

Also, howabout a trip attempt when player is knocked down? It could cost the same (slightly more?) AP than getting up, but could also 1.knock enemy down, making him spend more AP points 2. cause higher Leg Cripple chance.

So, this isn't about making fallout a balls out karate game, but adding some scuffeling/desperate wasteland brawling, thus implimenting a more realistic cinimatic feel to the battles, which increase realism. Having 2 folks patiently take turns left jabbing eachother is the heart of TB, so adding a little more grunge and scrap to the battle will if nothing else, keep me interested. Ya see, I've heard allot about graphics not effecting gameplay, but I say it does to an extent. Graphics are seperate than combat engine/rules/gameplay BUUUUT, visual variety, cinematic presentation and more visual/emotional choices to do roughly the same thing help keep the player in the wastelands brawling for his life against all odds, as opposed to seeing THE SAME THING over and over until you don't see a battle, but rather the underlying saving throws and turn taking that it really is.

Love to hear everyone's thoughts. And flame away if ya must, Manco's a big boy!

Manco
 
First, I don't think anyone is going to flame you, as you seem to have thought this through a lot. Disagree, probably, but I doubt you'll get flamed.

Second, if you haven't already, you should probably sign up at the interplay forums as well. Since JE spends most of his time at and posts on those forums, your ideas will get noticed by him. Since you're in favor of something he's proposing and have things to add to it, there's a decent chance some of your ideas might make it into the game, and at the very least you could probably debate them with him.
 
Or you can just post here where you can find sanctuary from the trolls and the Interplay fanboys.

Moves like diving kick will be hard, unless they can implement hex moves and attacks at one time.

Trip sounds good. And knockout. Anything that makes the enemy falls down and lose his AP's. In the other Fallouts, any shots to the legs would only cripple the enemy. Only way I could make them drop off their feet was with high strength or a sledgehammer.
 
Re: All right!

Manco said:
Again, good point, but what I was getting at was just leaving a few AP's in the bank to bulk up one's AC is a teeny bit boring (for some). To make the system deeper, why not include both the current way, as well as the option to choose saving vs. KO or arm/leg break?
Click to expand...

I don't think that knockouts or critical hits would be common enough to warrant this kind of addition. The AP to AC thing might be boring if you're looking for more depth - but if you don't get hit, you don't get critically hit, kind of making saving vs. critical hits only not worthwhile. I'd rather avoid all damage, rather than just KO/CH damage.



What about moves like a driving tackle? It could cost perhaps 7 or 8 AP, and instead of massive dmg, it could 1.have a higher ko chance than head hit. and 2. Cost enemy AP when they get back up. That could make the difference between the baddy using that stimpack and atempting called shots, they might just have enough AP to stand and shoot once.
Click to expand...

I like this idea. If the design team is willing to do the animation and programming for it I'd like to see it included as well. It's kind of silly when you see two people standing 3 feet apart shooting each other in the face, so this would give a gun-user an extra option in combat as well.

Also, howabout a trip attempt when player is knocked down? It could cost the same (slightly more?) AP than getting up, but could also 1.knock enemy down, making him spend more AP points 2. cause higher Leg Cripple chance.
Click to expand...

No comment on this one.

So, this isn't about making fallout a balls out karate game, but adding some scuffeling/desperate wasteland brawling, thus implimenting a more realistic cinimatic feel to the battles, which increase realism.
Click to expand...

I would really like to have this in the game as well, and think it's a really good idea. Why couldn't JE have phrased it this way? That said though - I don't really care for making Fallout more realistic, as the whole premise and world it exists in is fiction. Like most people around here, I just want to see F3 stay true to the setting and atmosphere created in Fallout. Cinematic? I don't think any turn-based game will ever feel cinematic - since F3 will be a turn-based game only for me, I don't really care about that part of it. I think that "desperate wasteland brawling" does fit though, as long as there isn't any martial arts craziness going on.
 
Keep it up yall!

Thanks for the feedback, now-

"I'd rather avoid all damage, rather than just KO/CH damage. "

And that should be your choice as a player. But wouldn't it be cool if some guys you attacked were always about the ko? Or maybe N.C.R. guys would have the tactics to disarm/arm break? I want my badguys in Fallout 3 to be more than "Whu-what? My turn again.? Hmmm, don't need to heal. I know! I will unaimed shoot the good guy!". (Repeat). It doesn't take magical AI to make me run accross the occasional knock out bastard, or a team of leg breakers. It gives the bad guys more to do than unarmed shoot and occasionally kick.

"I don't think that knockouts or critical hits would be common enough to warrant this kind of addition. "

In Fallout 1 and 2, your right. But if J.E. lets baddies go for called shots as much as the player does, I think my idea is fun. If not, why bother? But wasn't it weird when you fought Lo Pan, a master of fighting, he didn't try called shots? Wouldn't that fight have been more intense if he was totally attempting to break your arms, just every turn, boom, boom, boom, going for that arm cripple? Then maybe after you do a few Save vs. Arm Crip, he switches to the KO attack? Having different badguys trying different things to out fight you can do nothing but good for the unarmed system.

"No comment on this one. "

Did you hate the idea of a takedown? Hmmm, I just thought it added balance to a "standing ko attempt", this would be a "ground based leg cripple attempt". Both attacks would be good for AP recover games, which would add another little drip of depth for those looking for it. Again, those who hate to trip, shouldn't. An perhaps can't, if they don't have the unarmed skill tagged high enough.

"- I don't really care for making Fallout more realistic, as the whole premise and world it exists in is fiction. Like most people around here, I just want to see F3 stay true to the setting and atmosphere created in Fallout. Cinematic? I don't think any turn-based game will ever feel cinematic "

Mmm, don't misread realism for making Fallout somekind of Ghost Recon Sequel. What I'm sugesting will only increase the atmoshere and attempt to correct some of the shortcomings inherint to lategame TB play. And what I mean by cinematic, is that when you see 2 guys standing right next to eachother, trading left jabs until one guy expodes in a bloody mess, eventually the routine will set in and you just start to see saving throws and HPs. I think this happens in all TB no matter what at some point- but giving the player choices on attack style and combo, as well as the necessity to fight certin unarmed fights differently (or always be knocked out or arm crippled), IMHO, will do wonders to make me as the player buy into the world they are selling.

While at heart TB is er, turned base, it doesn't gotta feel that way. It will feel much less like tb, when the player does different things during his unarmed battle. It looks like "oh man! My player just belted that slaver in the head, then tackled that punk merchant before he pulled out the SMG". Not "Oh man, my player with 9 AP just totally left jabbed that slaver 3 times.".

Thats what I mean by "cinimatic/realism", not a type of camera angle/slow motion, nor a type of so-real-it's-boring fighting system. I mean that by little tweaks to the fighting system that make me fight for my life, even from the ground I was tripped on to, I buy the idea that I'm really a dude giving all he's got in the wasteland, and not just a player trading left jabs with a supermutant.

The current Fallout Unarmed combat is sterile, if you all dig the Fallout atmoshere, shouldn't it be desperate/explosive? That would increase Fallout realism.

So you guys know where I'm coming from, I love TB, and play it when given the choice, and thanks for the time to respond.

Manco
 
Good stuff

Save vs. KO/CH: Ok, I see your point now. How would this be implemented though? Would the PC have a screen similar to the targeting screen for called shots, only choosing an area to defend, or would you choose a two-option "defend against KO" "defend against CH" button? Unless the feedback informs you exactly where an enemy is targeting you, the former is pretty useless as you'll have no idea where to defend until it's too late. The later option wouldn't do too much to add depth to the system, though it would present more options than just adding AP to AC. I've never played FOT multiplayer, so I don't know how they handled it in that game, or how you would know that someone was trying to cripple your arms/legs/eyes/wherever.

The thing that bothers me about having more critical attempts all around is that if you have too many enemies following the same attack patterns (always going for CHs in specific areas or KOs - ie "Hmm, a raider - they always go for the legs, so I'll defend against that") it would get just as stale as the type of combat you're trying to enhance. On the other hand, if too many enemies have differing patterns, you're going to be reloading your game a lot due to the occasional lucky first strike that you didn't think to defend against, which justs gets frustrating. Granted, this happens occasionally in Fallout anyway. But with enemies attempting more critical hits it seems like it has the possiblity to get intolerable pretty quickly.

Takedowns: I didn't hate the idea, just couldn't think of anything to say. Would you want it to be an automatic response to a knockdown, where theres a chance of success whenever you get knocked down? If so, it should only be available at a pretty high skill level. In Fallout your character stands right up when it's his turn again, so attempting it as part of your turn isn't possible. Of course, JE might change this. If combat is changed so that you can perform an action while knocked down, and you can choose whether or not to spend the AP's to stand up, then I think it's a good idea. Having it as automatic or a perk, though, I'm not too sure about.

"Fallout realism" - I like that concept a lot. Making the game more "life-like" is a good thing - I just don't like the idea of dragging too much "reality" into the game, which for me means adding things in, just because they exist in real life, to the detriment of the atmosphere. I didn't mean it as a critique towards your ideas - it's just that the world "realism" makes me shudder sometimes.
 
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