Improvements to the gameplay of the classics?

Francis H

Francis H

It Wandered In From the Wastes
Been thinking of how New Vegas could have been made into an isometric, but I hit a dead end in terms of the gameplay considering I havent played many turnbased games and I seem to enjoy mostly the new shadowrun series. Thoughts?
 
I love the classic fallout games, don't get me wrong. But they have some of the most tedious and unengaging TB combat I have ever seen. Other than that I think fo2 basically fixed all the gameplay gripes I had with fo1.
 
Tbh, the only reason I haven´t completed F2 yet is because of the combat. Maybe it is mostly the animations, but even when I put it in the highest speed, it never really holds my interests. Maybe it is the case of too many loops to have to go through to do something as simple as shoot then move behind a wall, although how you could simplify it for a sandbox-like RPG is beyond me.
 
Yeah, Combat was rather slow and tedious in the second game.
I would just reload a previous save just to get passed them.

Personally, I would have prefered to have taken control of Party Members during Combat, that way you don't get silly stuff like a Deathclaw with low health hitting you, and Marcus moving onto the Deathclaw that's far away from you and has full health.

But otherwise, the Classics are fine.
 
R.Graves said:
I love the classic fallout games, don't get me wrong. But they have some of the most tedious and unengaging TB combat I have ever seen. Other than that I think fo2 basically fixed all the gameplay gripes I had with fo1.
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Now I'm curious, I know you mostly prefer the FPS/TPP Fallout games, so for you what game who has better TB combat, in a top-down isometric perspective than Fallout 1&2? I know off the top of my head obviously Underrail, Temple of Elemental Evil, maybe Wasteland 2, and probably Age of Decadence. Tactics supposedly have better combat from what I've heard, even though I have no way of knowing that since I haven't tried going further the first mission and other games hooked me more.
 
Black Angel said:
Now I'm curious, I know you mostly prefer the FPS/TPP Fallout games, so for you what game who has better TB combat, in a top-down isometric perspective than Fallout 1&2? I know off the top of my head obviously Underrail, Temple of Elemental Evil, maybe Wasteland 2, and probably Age of Decadence. Tactics supposedly have better combat from what I've heard, even though I have no way of knowing that since I haven't tried going further the first mission and other games hooked me more.
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Actually I mostly prefer the first 2. There are more good isometric fallout games than FPS fallout games. I just hate the combat. And I dunno... Er... The stick of truth had pretty engaging TB combat imo.
 
Mr Fish said:
Copy the way traps are used in underrail.

Grenade blast radius and throw lines from wasteland 2.

Elevation system (with crouch and prone) from fallout tactics.

Speech checks from fallout new vegas.

Etiquette system for charisma from shadowrun returns.
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Never though about the etiquette system in fallout, would help a lot though. What about a cover system?
 
Er... I dunno about that. When a cover system is introduced then the game gets designed around it so that you pretty much have to take cover (which will be spread around all over the place oh so conveniently) and it feels really forced. I hated it in XCOM and in Wasteland 2 it was a bit better but I still felt like it was just there for the sake of being there often times and felt obligated to play pop a mole with the enemies behind cover.

I'd rather the game simply acknowledge what the line of sight is. No cover system that flat out tells the player "here, you can cover here!", instead you have to figure shit out yourself. Like, if there is a moderately big log on the ground then going prone behind that guarantees you won't get shot, but you can't shoot unless you go to crouch (which requires AP) and then go prone again (which requires AP).

Technically it is a cover system but I'd rather the focus be on line of sight between elevations and objects in the way. So your characters don't "take cover", they simply happen to be inbetween an object that is disrupting the line of fire for the hostiles.
 
Mr Fish said:
Copy the way traps are used in underrail.

Grenade blast radius and throw lines from wasteland 2.

Elevation system (with crouch and prone) from fallout tactics.

Speech checks from fallout new vegas.

Etiquette system for charisma from shadowrun returns.
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I don't really like speech checks in Fallout New Vegas but if you do have them, then don't show the amount of speech needed, don't show if it's a fail or not and have them a lot less repeatable. Jesus Christ, but sometimes I felt like I was trying to persuade slot machines, where you failed today and could come ago again tomorrow for a better try.

Fallout 1/2 solved this in a much better way.
 
Dr Fallout said:
I don't really like speech checks in Fallout New Vegas but if you do have them, then don't show the amount of speech needed, don't show if it's a fail or not and have them a lot less repeatable. Jesus Christ, but sometimes I felt like I was trying to persuade slot machines, where you failed today and could come ago again tomorrow for a better try.

Fallout 1/2 solved this in a much better way.
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I totally agree, I just want there to be more checks for other skills and stats in dialogue besides Speech.
 
Mr Fish said:
I totally agree, I just want there to be more checks for other skills and stats in dialogue besides Speech.
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I think Speech should be divided up into Persuade, Intimidate and Barter, like in Underrail. It makes it feel more varied and could be implemented to actually allow for a full speech-only build.

I'd also like for more factors to come into play during dialogue, e.g. race (as in ghoul or human), build and height.

Other than that, I'd be pretty swell if they implemented basically everything Mr Fish said.
 
Brivoo said:
I think Speech should be divided up into Persuade, Intimidate and Barter, like in Underrail. It makes it feel more varied and could be implemented to actually allow for a full speech-only build.

I'd also like for more factors to come into play during dialogue, e.g. race (as in ghoul or human), build and height.

Other than that, I'd be pretty swell if they implemented basically everything Mr Fish said.
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Eh... Id want persuasion deception and barter. Intimidation wouldnt be a skill but rather a derivative stat which would incraese, for better or for worse, by your gear, perks, strength, reputation and other variables such as addiction to chems. Of course ot could still remain in the skill tree so that you can increase it if youd like to but i find the idea of a power armoured gatling laser wielding known murderer to not be able to intimidate someone because they lack the skill to be silly. Their reputation and gear alone should be enough to put anyone on edge.
 
Personally I find the difference between persuasion and deception minimal. Deception is basically persuading someone to believe a lie, and some of the best liers were smooth sons of bitches. Like Hitler, or Stalin.
 
Then we might as well lump energy weapons and guns into one skill. And why keep barter? Youre just persuading someone that it is a good deal. The difference between persuasion and deception is that with the former you are able to make someone see reason abd convince them of your argument, in the latter you are good at spotting lies, come up with a good excuse when confronted to avoid further suspicion and to successfully fool people into letting you walk amongst their ranks (disguise) and hell throw in the ability to smuggle stuff past guards too. Deception isnt the same as persuasion. I can speak well and make people listen to what i have to say but i cant lie for shit. My persuasion would be higher than my deception. So shouldnt the game reflect that?


Maybe we just need better names for these two skills.


[edit]

To go further into it, persuasion would handle most speech situations. Someone is about to shoot a place up? Talk them down. Someone owes money and you're sent out to collect? Convince them that it is better to be broke than to be broken.

Now Deception on the other hand is very specific. It is about the ability to catch someone else in their lies, to lie yourself and to deceive people in various other ways. So, it won't be used as often. When someone lies is obvious how it would work. NPC lies and you can call them out on it. However, just cause you can call them out on their lie does not mean you've hit the "win" button, you might need to use intimidation, persuasion, barter or other means to further convince them without things turning violent.

The second thing is being able to lie yourself. When would that happen? Well, you're skulking about a place you're not supposed to be and a guard apprehends you? Lie your way out of it. You've been asked by NPC 1 to do something that will be hurtful towards NPC 2 and NPC 2 is calling you out on it? Lie your way out of the situation.

As to the other two things, faction armor, the success of using it to disguise yourself is based on your Deception skill. At 100 no one would be able to see past it but the faction leader. And smuggling? Chems into Vault City and weapons into casino's on The Strip.

Persuasion doesn't do as many things as Deception do but it is used far more often. (I mean, how many places are there where you'd need to smuggle things in or use faction disguise anyway?)

A great speaker isn't necessarily a great con artist. And a great con artist may not be able to convince people of doing (what you consider to be) the right thing.

But...

This brings me to another point...

I think that some skills should bleed over to one another when they are increased. For example, for every 10 First Aid you get 1 Doctor (until you reach 100 in First Aid, after that point Doctor won't be increased unless you put points into it).

So Persuasion, Deception and even Barter? They'd all bleed into one another that way. If you're great at persuading people chances are you got what it takes to tell a little lie too. So if you start with 0 in all skills and raise Persuasion and Barter to 100 then Deception will have increased by 20.
 
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Black Angel said:
Now I'm curious, I know you mostly prefer the FPS/TPP Fallout games, so for you what game who has better TB combat, in a top-down isometric perspective than Fallout 1&2? I know off the top of my head obviously Underrail, Temple of Elemental Evil, maybe Wasteland 2, and probably Age of Decadence. Tactics supposedly have better combat from what I've heard, even though I have no way of knowing that since I haven't tried going further the first mission and other games hooked me more.
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try divinity or xcom/xenonauts, enviroment interaction is the key to make combat feel intense
 
Divinity was awfully silly with its convenient barrels of elementals everywhere though but yeah environment interaction would be great.

Oh and i want to get rid of the science skill. Remove repair while we are at it and replace them with electronics mechanics chemistry hacking and academics. Science is a skill ive never liked. It is far too broad of a skill. Recharging microfusion cells? Science. Talking about crop rotation? Science. Hacking a computer? Science. Science this and science that and sprinkle in some science over there and if you thought that was the end then you are going to love this bag of kittens drowned in science! I dont want fallout to have 50+ skills but i can not stand science. Science is basically if we had a skill called "combat" where we merge all combat skills together.
 
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Mr Fish said:
Then we might as well lump energy weapons and guns into one skill.
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Well actually that's stupid, because both have different ways of handling, and need separate training to be able to fire properly. Then there's also the different necessary knowledge of how the guns work, the ammunition they use and way to properly care for them.

Honestly, I think you should get rid of repair for guns and just incorporate that into the gun skills. Not everyone good at fixing a car is going to be skilled at fixing guns, while most people who have an intimate knowledge of guns knows how to do some shit on them.

Mr Fish said:
I think that some skills should bleed over to one another when they are increased. For example, for every 10 First Aid you get 1 Doctor (until you reach 100 in First Aid, after that point Doctor won't be increased unless you put points into it).

So Persuasion, Deception and even Barter? They'd all bleed into one another that way. If you're great at persuading people chances are you got what it takes to tell a little lie too. So if you start with 0 in all skills and raise Persuasion and Barter to 100 then Deception will have increased by 20.
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I really, really like this. But then again... there are so many persuasive people who are bad liers.
 
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