Iraq- casualties-

welsh

Junkmaster
New Report says that there is a 90% probability that Iraqis have lost 40K people in the war so far. This is more than the 15K so far reported. Casualities could be up close to 100K.

Frankly, I am amazed that the numbers are not more accurate.

Here is the normal prediction-
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

and american & coalition casualties- http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

"1,269 coalition deaths, 1,124 Americans, 73 Britons, seven Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 19 Italians, one Latvian, 13 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and nine Ukrainians in the war in Iraq as of November 4, 2004."

The Iraqi war

Counting the casualties

Nov 4th 2004
From The Economist print edition

AP

A statistically based study claims that many more Iraqis have died in the conflict than previous estimates indicated

THE American armed forces have long stated that they do not keep track of how many people have been killed in the current conflict in Iraq and, furthermore, that determining such a number is impossible. Not everybody agrees. Adding up the number of civilians reported killed in confirmed press accounts yields a figure of around 15,000. But even that is likely to be an underestimate, for not every death gets reported. The question is, how much of an underestimate?

A study published on October 29th in the Lancet, a British medical journal, suggests the death toll is quite a lot higher than the newspaper reports suggest. The centre of its estimated range of death tolls—the most probable number according to the data collected and the statistics used—is almost 100,000. And even though the limits of that range are very wide, from 8,000 to 194,000, the study concludes with 90% certainty that more than 40,000 Iraqis have died.



Numbers, numbers, numbers
This is an extraordinary claim, and so requires extraordinary evidence. Is the methodology used by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health, in Baltimore, and his colleagues, sound enough for reliable conclusions to be drawn from it?

The bedrock on which the study is founded is the same as that on which opinion polls are built: random sampling. Selecting even a small number of individuals randomly from a large population allows you to say things about the whole population. Think of a jar containing a million marbles, half of them red and half blue. Choose even 100 of these marbles at random and it is very, very unlikely that all of them would be red. In fact, the results would be very close to 50 of each colour.

The best sort of random sampling is one that picks individuals out directly. This is not possible in Iraq because no reliable census data exist. For this reason, Dr Roberts used a technique called clustering, which has been employed extensively in other situations where census data are lacking, such as studying infectious disease in poor countries.

Clustering works by picking out a number of neighbourhoods at random—33 in this case—and then surveying all the individuals in that neighbourhood. The neighbourhoods were picked by choosing towns in Iraq at random (the chance that a town would be picked was proportional to its population) and then, in a given town, using GPS—the global positioning system—to select a neighbourhood at random within the town. Starting from the GPS-selected grid reference, the researchers then visited the nearest 30 households.

In each household, the interviewers (all Iraqis fluent in English as well as Arabic) asked about births and deaths that had occurred since January 1st 2002 among people who had lived in the house for more than two months. They also recorded the sexes and ages of people now living in the house. If a death was reported, they recorded the date, cause and circumstances. Their deductions about the number of deaths caused by the war were then made by comparing the aggregate death rates before and after March 18th 2003.

They interviewed a total of 7,868 people in 988 households. But the relevant sample size for many purposes—for instance, measuring the uncertainty of the analysis—is 33, the number of clusters. That is because the data from individuals within a given cluster are highly correlated. Statistically, 33 is a relatively small sample (though it is the best that could be obtained by a small number of investigators in a country at war). That is the reason for the large range around the central value of 98,000, and is one reason why that figure might be wrong. (Though if this is the case, the true value is as likely to be larger than 98,000 as it is to be smaller.) It does not, however, mean, as some commentators have argued in response to this study, that figures of 8,000 or 194,000 are as likely as one of 98,000. Quite the contrary. The farther one goes from 98,000, the less likely the figure is.

The second reason the figure might be wrong is if there are mistakes in the analysis, and the whole exercise is thus unreliable. Nan Laird, a professor of biostatistics at the Harvard School of Public Health, who was not involved with the study, says that she believes both the analysis and the data-gathering techniques used by Dr Roberts to be sound. She points out the possibility of “recall bias”—people may have reported more deaths more recently because they did not recall earlier ones. However, because most people do not forget about the death of a family member, she thinks that this effect, if present, would be small. Arthur Dempster, also a professor of statistics at Harvard, though in a different department from Dr Laird, agrees that the methodology in both design and analysis is at the standard professional level. However, he raises the concern that because violence can be very localised, a sample of 33 clusters really might be too small to be representative.

This concern is highlighted by the case of one cluster which, as the luck of the draw had it, ended up being in the war-torn city of Fallujah. This cluster had many more deaths, and many more violent deaths, than any of the others. For this reason, the researchers omitted it from their analysis—the estimate of 98,000 was made without including the Fallujah data. If it had been included, that estimate would have been significantly higher.

The Fallujah data-point highlights how the variable distribution of deaths in a war can make it difficult to make estimates. But Scott Zeger, the head of the department of biostatistics at Johns Hopkins, who performed the statistical analysis in the study, points out that clustered sampling is the rule rather than the exception in public-health studies, and that the patterns of deaths caused by epidemics are also very variable by location.

The study can be both lauded and criticised for the fact that it takes into account a general rise in deaths, and not just that directly caused by violence. Of the increase in deaths (omitting Fallujah) reported by the study, roughly 60% is due directly to violence, while the rest is due to a slight increase in accidents, disease and infant mortality. However, these numbers should be taken with a grain of salt because the more detailed the data—on causes of death, for instance, rather than death as a whole—the less statistical significance can be ascribed to them.

So the discrepancy between the Lancet estimate and the aggregated press reports is not as large as it seems at first. The Lancet figure implies that 60,000 people have been killed by violence, including insurgents, while the aggregated press reports give a figure of 15,000, counting only civilians. Nonetheless, Dr Roberts points out that press reports are a “passive-surveillance system”. Reporters do not actively go out to many random areas and see if anyone has been killed in a violent attack, but wait for reports to come in. And, Dr Roberts says, passive-surveillance systems tend to undercount mortality. For instance, when he was head of health policy for the International Rescue Committee in the Congo, in 2001, he found that only 7% of meningitis deaths in an outbreak were recorded by the IRC's passive system.

The study is not perfect. But then it does not claim to be. The way forward is to duplicate the Lancet study independently, and at a larger scale. Josef Stalin once claimed that a single death is a tragedy, but a million deaths a mere statistic. Such cynicism should not be allowed to prevail, especially in a conflict in which many more lives are at stake. Iraq seems to be a case where more statistics are sorely needed.
 
New Report says that there is a 90% probability that Iraqis have lost 40K people in the war so far. This is more than the 15K so far reported. Casualities could be up close to 100K.
This is an example of how little it seems to matter that the iraqi people suffers, gibbing only importance on how may americans dies, not to mention the wounded in both sides.

This is a bloody war, no matter how bush want's to make it look like.
 
What you've expected?
In every war the civil people suffers more than everybody else... thats nothing specific of the Iraq war...
I'm not a pacifist at all, but this war was as necesarry and usefull as a refrigirator to an inuit...
 
I love commentary on Operation IRAQI FREEDOM from people who not only have never been to the AOR, but don't know anyone who has.

If you're buying your clues from the media you're really getting ripped off.
 
Thanks for saying the truth. You've got to speak with soldiers who've come back for the truth. A woman in a class I'm taking was a soldier, and at some point in the discussion the typical propaganda statement of how wrong the war was came up, and she spoke up and set the record straight and said that lots of good has been done and the country and its people are doing much better.
 
Member of Khans said:
What you've expected?
In every war the civil people suffers more than everybody else... thats nothing specific of the Iraq war...
I'm not a pacifist at all, but this war was as necesarry and usefull as a refrigirator to an inuit...
What you forget is that the civilians were suffering much more badly under Saddam Hussein. Does this make the civilian deaths OK? Hell no. But it does put it into perspective.

The war was necesary, badly handled, but necesary.

EDIT - I'd also like to point you towards a post I made a while back. It's pretty relevant to this.
 
Thanks for saying the truth. You've got to speak with soldiers who've come back for the truth. A woman in a class I'm taking was a soldier, and at some point in the discussion the typical propaganda statement of how wrong the war was came up, and she spoke up and set the record straight and said that lots of good has been done and the country and its people are doing much better.

depends on which soldier are you speaking to.
If you ask those nice guys of US Airforce in Europe i played the tourist guide for you will get 20 different answers from: "it was the best thing american foreign policy had done in the last 10 years" over what Big_T said ('the war was necessary, badly handled, but necessary') to "Bush is a war criminal, as bad as Sadam".

Concerning what it has brought to the Iraqi people you'll get the same spectrum of opinions...
(Two of those guys had been in Iraq. Unfortunaly one of them thinks the war was a mistake, the other is of the opinion that it was the most stupid think the US had ever done :shock:)

Hey! That's the only political thread here in which people are discussing rationally- not insulting each other :D
(In the last days it's realy rare :( ...
There're some forums... :roll: )
 
Lord 342 said:
Thanks for saying the truth. You've got to speak with soldiers who've come back for the truth.


What a load of crap.

A soldier coming back from a conflict will tell you his/her point of view on the thing, not the ultimate truth about the whole situation, let alone the whole war. The fact that the person volounteered to take action in an armed conflict already shows bias towards the situation and his stance to it, invalidating an objective approach to the subject.

A woman in a class I'm taking was a soldier, and at some point in the discussion the typical propaganda statement of how wrong the war was came up

Oh yes, definitely commie pinko punk propaganda. Cos you know, wars are like, good and stuff. Yeah. Let's plant a little dictator here and there, wait thirty years and invade the place. Yeehaw!

Tone said:
If you're buying your clues from the media you're really getting ripped off.

While I agree that the media is always biased to some extent, one way or another, I find it extremely hard to believe direct testimonies from soldiers would be more objective regarding the whole of the war. I can't stop myself thinking Pilgrim's line in Full Metal Jacket when he's asked about his stance on the Vietnam war.

It's a bit strange you treat the whole of the media as some kind of super conspiracy, twisting figures and facts, blowing numbers completely out of proportion. I believe there are quite a number of "war" reporters out there, that risk daily their lives to bring footage from Iraq.
 
I think that this whole "parade of power" is a silly situation for America to be placed in. We need to help ourselves before we can effectively and efficiently help anyone else.

Right now, our country is battered and bruised as it is, and as it has been for at least two decades (not even a millisecond in terms of Mother Nature). I find it hilarious that America is an extremely young country in comparison to many other countries in the world, and we are trying to mold the world into a "better place".

Yeah right...as of right now, I would say that at least 78% of our nation's leadership has hidden agendas for their own personal gains. I see no good coming from this whole situation in the future whatsoever.

But I could be wrong, and it all could be a wonderful thing that is going on, saving humanity from self-destruction...yeah right.

The sarcasm wasn't intended to anyone here at all, just my musing about my homeland.
 
Wooz said:
I believe there are quite a number of "war" reporters out there, that risk daily their lives to bring footage from Iraq.

Of the American ones, most of them are attached to military units and therefore lack freedom. They are prevented from getting too close to the action for reasons of safety and propaganda. Others without protection get snatched if they leave the safety of the 'green zone', so apparently many just cluster around the media briefing room and stick to their fortified hotels. Quite useless in terms of getting accurate reporting.
 
Wooz said:
A woman in a class I'm taking was a soldier, and at some point in the discussion the typical propaganda statement of how wrong the war was came up

Oh yes, definitely commie pinko punk propaganda. Cos you know, wars are like, good and stuff. Yeah. Let's plant a little dictator here and there, wait thirty years and invade the place. Yeehaw!

How nice of you to put words in my mouth. Not commie-pinko propaganda, NEW MEDIA propaganda. The media's theory is "If it bleeds, it leads!" so they publish the BAD stuff only and people think that no good comes from the war. Everybody knows war is a dirty business, but point is good stuff is happening, nobody much is talking about it.

I don't trust the soldiers completely, (I don't trust *anyone* completely!) but I've heard the media corroborate these fact too, just very, very rarely (because good stuff doesn't sell papers like "US MIRED IN IRAQ QUAGMIRE!!!" does) I've also heard soldiers talk about problems in Iraq, there is no denying they exist.

I'm just amazed at how many people believe whatever comes to them via the idiot box instead of trying to find some other sources and putting together an accurate picture. The media has the "Sell them papers!!!" doom-and-gloom attitude, the soldiers (For the most part) have the "GO US!" attitude. Put it together, you can get a picture more accurate than any source alone will give you, but it requires exercise of brainpower that your average moron on the street isn't willing to put out.

Wooz, I find your trust in the media disturbing. (Both movies and news) There isn't a conspiracy, you just have to understand that the media is trying to make a profit, just like any other companies, and will present its information in a fashion that will make that profit. Utilizing the information isn't impossible, but, as I said, it requires an exercise of intellect. Accepting it at face value is like thinking that some stupid product a has-been Soap-opera actor is hawking at 5am on TBS is really a life-changing Deus Ex Machina instead of at best a useful but otherwise mundane household item.
 
Lord 342 said:
Wooz, I find your trust in the media disturbing. (Both movies and news)

Where did I mention I blindly trust the media?I don't watch news channels nor read newspapers on a regular basis, only for major events. Most of the news I come across comes from news agecies I believe are close to objective, namely AFP and Reuters.

Unlike Fucks News, or some other propaganda channel.

There isn't a conspiracy, you just have to understand that the media is trying to make a profit, just like any other companies, and will present its information in a fashion that will make that profit

Look, Watson! A bird!

Back to the damn point, I was pointing out soldiers' testimonies can be as biased as the media if not more. It really depends on the soldier, and it really depends on the media agency.
 
I actually agree with Tone a bit. The news does play things out of proportion and has given us a false impression of facts on the ground.

I think it's a common experience that people abroad often hear the news back home and think "Hey that's not what I saw." I had that impression when I was in Singapore when there was a protest against the embassy- the news made it look like mass protests but actually it was all staged. My brother saw the same thing in Indonesia.

That said, thank god for the media. After all, would we know about Abu Graib from this administration? Doubtful. THe media is supposed to be a watchdog on the state, not it's mouthpiece. The state has plenty of opportunity to spin it's story- the press should look out for us.

But Tone, I am not so sure what is alarming about this story. This is merely saying that our figures on the number of Iraqi dead might be wrong and the numbers might be substantially higher. Considering that we have nothing but predictions- isn't that information important?
 
Wooz said:
Lord 342 said:
Thanks for saying the truth. You've got to speak with soldiers who've come back for the truth.


What a load of crap.

A soldier coming back from a conflict will tell you his/her point of view on the thing, not the ultimate truth about the whole situation, let alone the whole war. The fact that the person volounteered to take action in an armed conflict already shows bias towards the situation and his stance to it, invalidating an objective approach to the subject.

A woman in a class I'm taking was a soldier, and at some point in the discussion the typical propaganda statement of how wrong the war was came up

Oh yes, definitely commie pinko punk propaganda. Cos you know, wars are like, good and stuff. Yeah. Let's plant a little dictator here and there, wait thirty years and invade the place. Yeehaw!

Tone said:
If you're buying your clues from the media you're really getting ripped off.

While I agree that the media is always biased to some extent, one way or another, I find it extremely hard to believe direct testimonies from soldiers would be more objective regarding the whole of the war. I can't stop myself thinking Pilgrim's line in Full Metal Jacket when he's asked about his stance on the Vietnam war.

It's a bit strange you treat the whole of the media as some kind of super conspiracy, twisting figures and facts, blowing numbers completely out of proportion. I believe there are quite a number of "war" reporters out there, that risk daily their lives to bring footage from Iraq.

Wooz: Let me set a few things straight.

People are volunteering for the military. Most people aren't volunteering to go to Iraq, they are being told they will go. You'd actually be surprised at the number of people who complain when they get selected to go because they have all these worries, will be away from family, etc...

For the most part, the media in the U.S. is biased. I think that was well established during the presidential campaigns and elections.
 
welsh said:
But Tone, I am not so sure what is alarming about this story. This is merely saying that our figures on the number of Iraqi dead might be wrong and the numbers might be substantially higher. Considering that we have nothing but predictions- isn't that information important?

Nothing was alarming, I was mainly taking aim at Gonzalez and the string of responses I expected to follow.

It is important info.
 
Tone said:
For the most part, the media in the U.S. is biased. I think that was well established during the presidential campaigns and elections.

Indeed, not only US media is biased, agreed on that.

However, I still believe individual opinions have the potential to be even more biased than a media agency. Especially if it's a respectable, international one, not a state/corporate run wannabe Goebbels' plaything.

And as well as there are people who complain about going into the sandbox, there surely are people who are more than willing to go, for whatever cause they seem right. Which underlines further my point on the fact that individual testimonies and situation interpretations can be more biased than a media source.

Regardless on how strong his/her beliefs are and experiences, an interview with a returning soldier isnn't going to tell you the ultimate truth about the war, in any case.

The media isn't going to do it, either.
 
While an interview with a returning soldier isn't going to tell us the ultimate truth, it is going to tell a "first person" perspective on what is going on there.

The media has clearly taken its normal route to report the bad news.
 
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