Is stealing okay?

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Assuming Fallout 3 were to use a similar Reputation and Karma system, I think that stealing should affect Karma. I have noticed that you can rob the entire world blind in F1 and F2 and (as long as you don't get caught) it doesn't affect Karma or Reputation. I understand that it shouldn't affect Reputation because that is your "perceived" alignment, but it should still affect Karma because that is your "true" alignment. Or is stealing okay?
 
Stealing is not 'evil'. I also doubt that after the war someone should be bothered by "Thou shalt not steal".




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Okay, maybe stealing in and of itself is not 'evil'. I almost always playing as a theif, and am certainly not condemning those who also do.

What I mean is: Don't you think that robbing every poor peasant in Shady Sands of the bottle caps which belong to them should have some kind of effect on your Karma? It is taking advantage of the weak. Also, as a result of your actions, their families may starve. Or when they are attacked they will not be able to fight back because some person (not pointing any fingers) has borrowed their knife. Therefore: Karma should reflect this.

Perhaps in Fallout 3, Karma adjustments from stealing should be determined by the type of person you are stealing from:

1) Additions when stealing from 'bad guys'
2) Subtractions when stealing from 'good guys'
3) No effect when stealing from indifferent characters.

This would deter potential 'good guys' from taking advantage of the weak. And it shouldn't bother bad-asses because their actions would give them bad Karma anyway. It's only a simple change, but I think it would help reflect the character's true nature more accurately.
 
You know...

I never thought about the idea of penalizing those that steal from the poor peasants. I never bothered to steal from them cause I'm always the good guy and they never really had anything worth stealing.

But it does bring up a good argument.

How about this question though:

Fallout: Tactics has a certain commentary in the tutorial about how stealing from dead bodies isn't dishonorable. Now, this was directed to the Tribals who evidently thought that stealing WAS a bad thing to do. Especially from those that were dead.

So the Chosen One should have lost Karma, technically, from stealing from the deceased.

I think Karma should affect a person based on their specific way of life.

For example, if Fallout 3 would give you choices upon character development of what sort of group, organization, or land your character is from, perhaps saying you were a tribal would give you perks such as scouting, healing, skinning, and high attributes in melee, outdoorsman, and throwing skills. But your character would suffer major draw backs such as low bartering, low gambling, low big and energy weapons. Things like that. Plus...you'd suffer a penalty from stealing from dead bodies.

So while you can make more money by skinning Geckos, or maybe tanning Brahmin hide to make leather armor...you wouldn't be able to take something not belonging to you from a dead person, otherwise risk being known as someone evil.

Now if lets say you were from the Desert Rangers (from Wasteland). Maybe you'd get the sharpshooter, ranger, weapon handling perks. You'd get high attributes in skills like small guns, traps, and outdoorsman. Being more civilized and not fearing the dead, and also being a survivalist, you probably wouldn't have much of a problem from taking things from the bodies of the dead.

BUT! Rangers were generally protectors of the wasteland. They were the good guys, at one time the last hope for mankind. So if they would steal from the poor and the deprived then their karma would hurt them incredibly.

Now, lets say that you are a Bandit from some Circle of Thieves. You would get perks such as pickpocket, thief, and night vision. You'd have high skills in stealing, sneaking, and lockpicking. You would not get penalized from stealing from bodies and you wouldn't lose Karma from stealing from anyone since it is technically your job to steal from people.

An interesting twist would be the guy that chooses to be the simple "drifter". Aka: Mad Max. He'd get perks in loner, survivalist, and rad resistance (a bit interesting, but a drifter from experience probably knows pockets of radiation or automatically carries a geiger counter. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't have been a drifter to long). His skills would then be small guns, bartering, outdoorsman.

The drifter would then be set on how to survive. He's good with using shotguns, pistols, and rifles. He knows a bit about the great outdoors and how to survive in it, and he knows how to barter the things he finds. Interestingly enough though, I'd actually penalize the drifter for NOT raiding the dead that he encounters. Because his survival is generally on the finding of things for trade and such. I'd also penalize him with negative karma points when having people join his party.

So the drifter or survivalist would actually have to be a loner through the entire game. He'd be a better fighter and ideal for salvaging things from places that have radiation in them. He'd make generally more money than most with his higher bartering skills, and his life remains pretty simple. So lets penalize him also for taking "save the world" sort of quests.

Which basically means, you'd have to make Fallout 3 non-linear with multiple endings.

You'd also be able to customize your hero. The perks and such I mentioned just sort of help you to come up with your own idea. I think there would be more general characters to come up with too.

Obviously you'd need a mad scientist sort of character. Your standard field medic type of character, your rich city boy kinda character, whatever. And each one would have sub classes.

Like maybe your a ranger/field medic. Ya know? Sorta like how NEverwinter Nights does it.

But at any point you can always CUSTOMIZE and make your own character too.

I suggest that they allow for mutations. More than just growing a sixth toe. I think that if you grow certain appendages they might help you in battle, but might perhaps lower or raise karma. Perhaps if you're a tribal and you grow another appendage you'll raise it since the people will be in awe. But if your civilized you'll karma will lower. Especially if your a thief since three legs would probably put you at a disadvantage. And even if you think four arms would be better (multiple weaponry firing at once) you would lose your innocent look. You'd have the attention of everyone everywhere, something a thief doesn't want to attract.

"I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein.
 
RE: You know...

Fallout 3 should definately be non-linear with multiple endings. Well written non-linear, not flat pointless non-linear. It should have "Save the World" endings, "Conquer the World" endings, and varying degrees of bitter-sweet endings.

I am quite taken with the idea of choosing your character's origin and having that affect your stats, skills, etc...

Perhaps this could be implimented like the Traits list. Have an "Origin" list and an "Occupation" list. Choose one, both, or none.

Also, in a non-linear Fallout, this could determine where you begin your quest.

Although a few of your mutant variations seem a bit too outlandish, I think there should be a greater variety of mutants. At least one two-headed one (having to kill both heads to defeat the enemy makes greater use of the already wonderful targeting system).

And now: Cockroach's Personal Corpse Robbing Fallout 2 Experience:

I was just minding my own business when some power armoured soldiers murder a poor schmuck and his family. I was paralysed until after they left (but I'm sure I could have taken them armed with using my Hard Punch and Leather Armour). I checked the bodies because I though they might be carrying something important (which they weren't). I have always questioned the morality of robbing their splattered remains, but never those of people who tried to kill me. Making me waste my bullets! How rude! You better be carrying some .44 JHP! What? A spear? You bastard!

P.S. Cockroach is my character's name.
 
Well...

Its kinda humorous to think that some guy has something valuable and you only find a spear, but when you think about it, most of the times you see what the person's weapon is in the game. If someone attacks you with a spear, I seriously doubt they have a pistol. Thats the way Fallout seems to work. If they have a gun, they'll always use that before anything else.

I think they messed up with having swords in Fallout 2. I mean, my goodness, didn't they watch Raider's of the Lost Ark? Indiana Jones just shoots that Arab that was waving his swords all about like a moron. I mean, my goodness. What the heck is a japanese sword going to do you if you can just shoot em? And the closer they get to you, the better aim you have.

Heck...I think it'd be more intelligent to have bows and arrows or crossbows than a stupid sword. In fact, I think a bow and arrows would be a great weapon for Tribals who are using whatever they can find in nature. And at least its "ranged". Compared to the rifles, pistols, smgs, and all that good stuff Tribals realistically don't have a chance.

Just look at what the white men did to the Indians ya know? They had sticks and stones and we had that hand crank chain gun that just mowed them down. Not to mention we had rifles and pistols. The only thing advantage that they had was that they knew the territory, we were stupid, and that we didn't have semi-automatics yet. =)

"I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein.
 
RE: Well...

CORPSE ROBBING

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if he had a pistol he wouldn't be brandishing a spear. But a raider might be carrying bullets with no gun because
he found them on of a victim. I know, it's pretty far fetched, but when you think about it, it's kind of a silly thing to debate anyway.

SWORDS

Indy nailed that Arab in Raiders of the Lost Ark, but he sure ran from those Hindu Swordsman in the Temple of Doom.

Still, the closest I'd get to using swords would be large crudely made blades or maybe even a machette.

BOWS

I'm okay with bows using the same reasoning you do.

Fallout ---has---> Tribals
Tribals ---use---> Spears ---and---> Bows

Hell, there are a couple of BB Guns if I'm not mistaken, so what's a couple of bows.

Of course they wouldn't stand a chance against guns. And nobody's suggesting that one should be able to storm the Enclave with a bow.
They're for hunting and tribal defense. Also, three tribals with bows can kill one raider with a gun but three tribals with spears might not make it.
And besides, tribals don't launch full frontal attacks anyway. They move silently through the woods using their SNEAK ability and shoot stupid
white people while their pistols are still holstered. Someone should ask General Custer if a bow can take a pistol.

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT:

I'm sure one of those firemen's axes must have survived the blast (or they should have had them in the Vaults 'in case of emergency').
It wouldn't be an ideal weapon, but neither is a crowbar (which should also be used to pry open boxes, lockers, wooden doors).
 
Hmmm...

I agree that an AX should be a weapon of choice in Fallout, in fact, I never understood this, but in Tactics isn't one of the weapons a handle from an ax? Why'd the moron take off the blade? I'd imagine that it'd be a great survival tool. Lets all hear it for the mighty hatchet! Woooo.

Here's something else you might like to think of. What about metal detectors? That would be every survivalists best friend besides food, water, ammunitions, and assuming the factor that there are cities that barter with strangers.

If all of these check out then it'd be spiffy having a metal detector because maybe you could find a few extra coins, or maybe you could find buried treasures left over from the war. Whatever you find, you could just as well sell. I bet there are still some old folks in those wasteland cities that would trade big for a relic from their past.


"I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein.
 
RE: Hmmm...

IMHO, Karma in the games is sorta more like reputation. It affects how people treat you, how they think of you.

If you pickpocket someone and succeed, they don't know it was you.

I mean, a murderer who isn't caught/suspected isn't treated like a murderer by other people.
 
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