Issues in Fallout: what should be changed?

[GhostWhoTalks]

Alright supposing that my "phase-based combat" is over-the-top, excessive (what have you), then how would you all address (if you would at all) the following issues?



Espionage efforts have not been stressed in the game. Infiltration, deception, and sabotage have not been given all due attention in my opinion. On a possible related note: Stealth characters have many less options than diplomatic or combat characters when it comes to completing objectives, thus making stealth more of a combat skill than a domestic skill.


The ambush is a relatively crippled combat option due to the nature of turn based combat. A character can have a high perception character move in at an earlier sequence, and then allow all the characters who would not have seen the hidden characters to have the option to attack, thus ruining the ambush. On a possibly related note: there are not very many penalties to a player who wishes to simply charge an enemy position as there are no response actions (like in tactics where you would automatically shoot an enemy who got into a certain range) and less ability to present an effective ambush.


I will admit that perhaps revamping combat entirely is not the best avenue of approach, but there are certain fundamental aspects of the game which I feel are not well done. I am fairly sure we can all agree that espionage has a place in a game like fallout, yes?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Alright supposing that my "phase-based combat" is over-the-top, excessive (what have you), then how would you all address (if you would at all) the following issues?

No supposing about it. It's an RPG Jim, not a squad based tactical combat game. :<insert star trek smilie here>:

Espionage efforts have not been stressed in the game. Infiltration, deception, and sabotage have not been given all due attention in my opinion. On a possible related note: Stealth characters have many less options than diplomatic or combat characters when it comes to completing objectives, thus making stealth more of a combat skill than a domestic skill.

Espionage and infiltration suggest a more sophisticated society structure than should be found in Fallout games. Stealth characters are usually thieves or diplomats. The former it's a secondary skill so for it to be more useful there should be more thievery going on (something that's lacking in most rpgs), for the latter it's a necessity to escape those situations where fancy talking isn't going to get you out of trouble. Random Encounters and combat with critters. Even in combat stealth is mainly used by unarmed/melee characters to get closer to their targets.

The ambush is a relatively crippled combat option due to the nature of turn based combat. A character can have a high perception character move in at an earlier sequence, and then allow all the characters who would not have seen the hidden characters to have the option to attack, thus ruining the ambush. On a possibly related note: there are not very many penalties to a player who wishes to simply charge an enemy position as there are no response actions (like in tactics where you would automatically shoot an enemy who got into a certain range) and less ability to present an effective ambush.

One ambushes aren't a big staple of an RPG, when there is an ambush scripted it usually is just that, scripted. As a plot device rather than a tactical opportunity.

Two it's not really fair not to have the option to suprise the supriser (unless it is a scripted moment designed to move the plot along) and sequence only comes into play once TB has started the ambusher always has the option to initiate combat at any time, while the target still needs to become aware of the ambush before they can do anything about it.

As for responses, AI improves all the time (so they tell us), and just because interrupts or overwatch modes weren't in FO 1&2 doesn't mean you can't add them to a future game without totally revamping the combat system.

I will admit that perhaps revamping combat entirely is not the best avenue of approach, but there are certain fundamental aspects of the game which I feel are not well done. I am fairly sure we can all agree that espionage has a place in a game like fallout, yes?

Nope, not unless the plot calls for it, and even then espionage needn't be any more than what can already be done with the current sneak, steal and lockpick skills.

 

[GhostWhoTalks]

I don't quite agree.

If Fallout is meant to be an anarchic vision of a post apocalyptic US that society has ceased to have any cohesion, then why do speech skills exist? Why is diplomacy even an option?


If, however, speaking is an option, then deception is a possibility, and thus should not be precluded from the possible means for non-violent solutions to a problem.

So I think we can all be fairly certain that espionage exists as a possibility. The question then becomes why would anyone want to use espionage?

Well for one thing an organization as secret and large as the Brotherhood would have numerous uses for espionage. Information gathering on enemies, keeping abreast of happenings in towns which might lead to finding pre-war tech, and counter-intelligence to prevent enemy groups from infiltrating the Brotherhood.



At this point I am fairly sure that I have established a good case for usability of espionage in Fallout. The question then becomes does espionage clash with any of the themes present in Fallout.


Does espionage clash with the post-apocalyptic theme? This is perhaps the easiest place to raise an argument, but I will submit that as soon as one has cities espionage exists. Now if you can point out where exactly espionage (and that diplomacy would not likewise be contra-indicated) would clash with a PA themed game, then I would interested in hearing it.


Does espionage clash with the 50's style Sci-Fii Fallout? I would argue that exactly the opposite is the case. Mad scientists are threatening to blow up the world and aliens from Mars are invading the planet. As a reality check the 1950's were perhaps the US's most paranoid times, and as such espionage would not be an out of place thematic element to include.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I don't quite agree.

If Fallout is meant to be an anarchic vision of a post apocalyptic US that society has ceased to have any cohesion, then why do speech skills exist? Why is diplomacy even an option?

I said a more sophisticated society, not no society at all. Besides the world is still made up of individuals, even in an anarchic atmosphere there will still be people who prefer to talk or willing to listen to reason.

If, however, speaking is an option, then deception is a possibility, and thus should not be precluded from the possible means for non-violent solutions to a problem.

If you re-read my post I didn't disagree with you about deception, of course you should be able to lie to people, there's not much roleplaying to be done if you can't lie. I'd like to see a leaf taken out of Torment's book and add to the speech options indicators for which options are the truth if you are lying or not. But then again since Fallout doesn't use the same karmic/alignment system as Torment it doesn't really matter if you say yeah I'll join you and then when they turn around and put their weapons away shoot them in the back. Though in the case of joining the slavers you should have the option of backing out before you get tattooed.

So I think we can all be fairly certain that espionage exists as a possibility. The question then becomes why would anyone want to use espionage?

Well for one thing an organization as secret and large as the Brotherhood would have numerous uses for espionage. Information gathering on enemies, keeping abreast of happenings in towns which might lead to finding pre-war tech, and counter-intelligence to prevent enemy groups from infiltrating the Brotherhood.

When your society exists purely for survival, getting enough to eat, a warm body in your bed at night and something to make time pass more pleasurably then your not going to be worried about infiltrating other groups, you might scout them out but if they're a potential threat you'd just attack them.

At this point I am fairly sure that I have established a good case for usability of espionage in Fallout. The question then becomes does espionage clash with any of the themes present in Fallout.


Does espionage clash with the post-apocalyptic theme? This is perhaps the easiest place to raise an argument, but I will submit that as soon as one has cities espionage exists. Now if you can point out where exactly espionage (and that diplomacy would not likewise be contra-indicated) would clash with a PA themed game, then I would interested in hearing it.

I always thought the Killian quest to bug or record Gizmo was out of place, what does he need such complex proof for? Given what you see of the rest of the town the only real law is that of might makes right. After the attack on Killian he could of easily just retaliated. The level of the rest of the townsfolk doesn't justify the need for recording devices. He could of just said, Gizmo sent one of his men to attack me, when I challenged him about it he drew on me so I had to kill him.

It's been said before, the PA world takes a lot from the frontier life. Lynch mobs instead of courts, gunslingers instead of CSI etc. There's not much point to the game to have a complex espionage system when you can already, just walk into a town talk to a few people, sneak into a building and lockpick a container or pickpocket a quest item.

Perhaps you should detail how you see Espionage working, because it's a word that, for me, has connotations of a more complex environment than you'd find even a wasteland city. As I see it the games have already included a basic level of spying in several of the quests. Which is fine, because they were only a small part of the whole, not the main focus for non combat characters. It's not a cyber punk game after all.

Does espionage clash with the 50's style Sci-Fii Fallout? I would argue that exactly the opposite is the case. Mad scientists are threatening to blow up the world and aliens from Mars are invading the planet. As a reality check the 1950's were perhaps the US's most paranoid times, and as such espionage would not be an out of place thematic element to include.

I think we should aways check against the PA elements before the 50's sci fi, after all the games have been set after the bomb. If it fits the 50's theme but not the PA setting it shouldn't go in anymore than if it fitted the PA setting but not the theme.

 

[GhostWhoTalks]

Fair enough. I do admit that the best possible object lay in objecting to it on the grounds that espionage would not be appropriate for a post apocalyptic setting.


But I would point out that groups do persist. Human beings are fundamentally social animals and will form groups out of survival almost as much as out of instinct. You will notice that while the brotherhood is trying to eradicate its enemies some enemies are persistent or otherwise hard to eradicate. This is where spying on your enemy would make sense.


And when I say espionage I am not talking about high tech gadgetry (though rare instances of pre-war tech could surface), but more about opportunity in the game. Sabotaging your enemy's generator or assembly line (assuming they one still remained).


I don't really want to add anything new to the game in terms of skills (except maybe separating deception from speech), but would rather an alternative dimension be added to the game. As a non-violent solution cripply your enemy through deception, infiltration, sabotage, ambush, or assassination (poisoning type thing, not just shooting them from stealth).

We both seem to agree that deception should remain a possibility.

So the question is about the latter 4.

I think infiltration has its place, since groups will still want to spy on each other. I think sabotage while not as prevalent could still be very important, since damaging the pre-war tech a certain group possesses could be very damaging to the group. Ambush I think deserves to be a viable combat tactic. And assassination is something I feel should be added just allow for a more complete character type possibility.


So like I said I am not interested in adding a new skill (new perk perhaps), but am rather interested in ideas which could be used to bolster the much maligned "spy" profession of the Fallout world.

I mean something as simple as destroying a generator with explosives like what was done in Tactics would be nice.


But some things like ambush and infiltration takes work to make them worthwhile. Hence I suggested an alternate combat system which would reward such behavior.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Well on a basic level you've got infiltration in FO2 when you go to Navarro or the Oil Rig, you've got assinations with poisons, super stim packs and dynamite in inventories. You can sabotage the ghouls reactor or blow up the vat's computer, or destroy the still in the Den.

There's plenty of that sort of stuff in the games, as I said it all depends on the plot. When you go on about espionage and infiltration it sounded like you wanted some complex system or to change the whole emphasis of the game.

As for ambushes, as I said they tend to be used as plot devices, you don't need to change the system just for set peices.