Leftist article for the war on Iraq

Thump! "Another reason: a lot of people suppose that any sort of anticolonial movement must be admirable or, at least, acceptable. Or they think that, at minimum, we shouldn't do more than tut-tut-even in the case of a movement that, like the Baath Party, was founded under a Nazi influence. In 1943, no less!"

It always comes back to the Nazis.
 
But this made not the slightest sense to him, and there was nothing left to do but to hit each other over the head with our respective drinks.
I just LOVE :roll: the ending! It is so representative of the way people often choose to enforce their ideas and principles! Damn, it must sure feel good to have the biggest stick in the neighborhood! :violent: Who says you can't always have the last word? :twisted:
Anyway that is an interesting perspective.
 
c0ldst33ltrs4u said:
But this made not the slightest sense to him, and there was nothing left to do but to hit each other over the head with our respective drinks.
I just LOVE :roll: the ending! It is so representative of the way people often choose to enforce their ideas and principles! Damn, it must sure feel good to have the biggest stick in the neighborhood! :violent: Who says you can't always have the last word? :twisted:
Anyway that is an interesting perspective.

You can only use diplomacy to say 'or else' so many times before you should actually commit to 'or else'. Good 'ole Teddy Roosevelt was right when he said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." 8)
 
Bah. What bull. It's....silly to read.

Besides, haven't we gone over this Iraq debate long enough for now? I think I must've written an entire book about it with the amount of posts I made on the subject....
 
Wow. What a consiese answer to many of the looming questions.


Almost makes you look as bad as me. Or worse; at least I have the decency to adress some of them.
 
What "looming questions"? If you think questions need to be answered, then go post those questions!

EDIT:
YOu know what? I'll just go answer the "thumps":

George W. Bush is an unusually repulsive politician, except to his own followers, and people are blinded by the revulsion they feel. And, in their blindness, they cannot identify the main contours of reality right now. They peer at Iraq and see the smirking face of George W. Bush. They even feel a kind of schadenfreude or satisfaction at his errors and failures. This is a modern, television-age example of what used to be called 'false consciousness.
Oh, of course, this is partially true. People loathe Dubya, so they oppose what he does. But the people who are willing to form their own opinion on the matter look BEYOND that and look at what's actually happening and has happened.

The left doesn't see because a lot of otherwise intelligent people have decided, a priori, that all the big problems around the world stem from America. Even the problems that don't. This is an attitude that, sixty years ago, would have prevented those same people from making sense of the fascists of Europe, too.
This is only true for those who follow their leaders like sheep, not thinking for themselves.
Furthermore, I personally have no problem with the USA at all and the fact that I disagree with it's policies doesn't mean that I think all of the problems in the world stem from the US. Silly reasoning, bad generalisation.

Another reason: a lot of people suppose that any sort of anticolonial movement must be admirable or, at least, acceptable. Or they think that, at minimum, we shouldn't do more than tut-tut-even in the case of a movement that, like the Baath Party, was founded under a Nazi influence. In 1943, no less!
What the hell does having been founded under Nazi influence have to do with anything? Look at policies and actions to see what a party does, not at when or how it is was founded.
Plus, it's silly to suppose that everyone just thinks "Evil colonialism" when they look at the Iraq problem.

The left doesn't see because a lot of people, in their good-hearted effort to respect cultural differences, have concluded that Arabs must for inscrutable reasons of their own like to live under grotesque dictatorships and are not really capable of anything else, or won't be ready to do so for another five hundred years, and Arab liberals should be regarded as somehow inauthentic. Which is to say, a lot of people, swept along by their own high-minded principles of cultural tolerance, have ended up clinging to attitudes that can only be regarded as racist against Arabs.
This is just plain offensive. It is basically saying that "the left"(if there is such a thing) likes dictatorships, and that arab liberals are wrong. Bah!

The old-fashioned left used to be universalist-used to think that everyone, all over the world, would some day want to live according to the same fundamental values, and ought to be helped to do so. They thought this was especially true for people in reasonably modern societies with universities, industries, and a sophisticated bureaucracy-societies like the one in Iraq. But no more! Today, people say, out of a spirit of egalitarian tolerance: Social democracy for Swedes! Tyranny for Arabs! And this is supposed to be a left-wing attitude? By the way, you don't hear much from the left about the non-Arabs in countries like Iraq, do you? The left, the real left, used to be the champion of minority populations-of people like the Kurds. No more! The left, my friend, has abandoned the values of the left-except for a few of us, of course
More ungrounded bullshit offensiveness.

Another reason: A lot of people honestly believe that Israel's problems with the Palestinians represent something more than a miserable dispute over borders and recognition-that Israel's problems represent something huger, a uniquely diabolical aspect of Zionism, which explains the rage and humiliation felt by Muslims from Morocco to Indonesia. Which is to say, a lot of people have succumbed to anti-Semitic fantasies about the cosmic quality of Jewish crime and cannot get their minds to think about anything else.
Eh.....WHAT? This is even more offensive than the previous two points, and completely stupid as well.

I mean, look at the discussions that go on even among people who call themselves the democratic left, the good left-a relentless harping on the sins of Israel, an obsessive harping, with very little said about the fascist-influenced movements that have caused hundreds of thousands and even millions of deaths in other parts of the Muslim world. The distortions are wild, if you stop to think about them. Look at some of our big, influential liberal magazines-one article after another about Israeli crimes and stupidities, and even a few statements in favor of abolishing Israel, and hardly anything about the sufferings of the Arabs in the rest of the world. And even less is said about the Arab liberals-our own comrades, who have been pretty much abandoned. What do you make of that, my friend? There's a name for that, a systematic distortion-what we Marxists, when we were Marxists, used to call ideology
No, really, this guy is just being stupid and offensive.

The left doesn't see because a lot of people are, in any case, willfully blind to anti-Semitism in other cultures. They cannot get themselves to recognize the degree to which Nazi-like doctrines about the supernatural quality of Jewish evil have influenced mass political movements across large swaths of the world. It is 1943 right now in huge portions of the world-and people don't see it. And so, people simply cannot detect the fascist nature of all kinds of mass movements and political parties. In the Muslim world, especially.
Why oh why is this man being so offensive and silly? Does anyone have an answer for me?

if good-hearted people like you would only open your left-wing eyes, you would see clearly enough that the Baath Party is very nearly a classic fascist movement, and so is the radical Islamist movement, in a somewhat different fashion-two strands of a single impulse, which happens to be Europe's fascist and totalitarian legacy to the modern Muslim world. If only people like you would wake up, you would see that war against the radical Islamist and Baathist movements, in Afghanistan exactly as in Iraq, is war against fascism
That's right, this guy thinks that leftist people feel that the Baath party and suicide bombing muslims are good people. What.the.fuck?

The United Nations and international law are fine by me, and more than fine. I am their supporter. Or, rather, would like to support them. It would be better to fight an antifascist war with more than a begrudging UN approval. It would be better to fight with the approving sanction of international law-better in a million ways. Better politically, therefore militarily. Better for the precedents that would be set. Better for the purpose of expressing the liberal principles at stake. If I had my druthers, that is how we would have gone about fighting the war. But my druthers don't count for much. We have had to choose between supporting the war, or opposing it-supporting the war in the name of antifascism, or opposing it in the name of some kind of concept of international law. Antifascism without international law; or international law without antifascism. A miserable choice-but one does have to choose, unfortunately
I almost forgot. We've had to choose between opposing and supporting the war, and apparently "the left" has made it's choice: opposing the war. That's what the left choose, so what is this guy blathering on about?

I'm for overthrowing tyrants, and since when did overthrowing fascism become treason to the left
Since overthrowing that tyrant meant storming past the UN, international law, any kind of honest justifications and the like.

You haven't the foggiest idea what fascism is," I said. "I always figured that a keen awareness of extreme oppression was the deepest trait of a left-wing heart. Mass graves, three hundred thousand missing Iraqis, a population crushed by thirty-five years of Baathist boots stomping on their faces-that is what fascism means! And you think that a few corrupt insider contracts with Bush's cronies at Halliburton and a bit of retrograde Bible-thumping and Bush's ridiculous tax cuts and his bonanzas for the super-rich are indistinguishable from that?-indistinguishable from fascism? From a politics of slaughter? Leftism is supposed to be a reality principle. Leftism is supposed to embody an ability to take in the big picture. The traitor to the left is you, my friend . . ."
This is an odd man. A really really odd man....
 
Look above, CCR. Besides, you can't really force me to debate, you know.... :P
 
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