Mao: Greatest Criminal of 20th Century?

John Uskglass

Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Mao: The Unknown Story
by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday
Jonathan Cape £25, pp832
During the first week of June 1966, pupils from a middle school in Beijing felt suddenly impelled to declare themselves part of Mao Tse-tung's Cultural Revolution. They chose to demonstrate their devotion to the Great Helmsman by painting a poster which warned his enemies: 'We will strike you to the ground and trample you.' To make their intentions doubly clear, they added: 'We will be brutal.'

Then, in a rhetorical flourish which was dangerously close to bourgeois self-regard, they signed themselves 'the Red Guard'. The youthful storm troopers of what was more a madness than a movement had acquired a name.

In Mao: The Unknown Story, Jung Chang and Jon Halliday invariably, and with absolute justification, refer to the Cultural Revolution as 'the Great Purge'. It so happened that the wrath of the Red Guard was directed against 'intellectuals', loosely defined as anyone who had any pretensions to learning. But the method by which they were suppressed - mass murder usually accompanied by gratuitous torture - was the same as that which Mao employed whenever he felt it necessary to strengthen his hold over China and its people. His entire life was punctuated with slaughter of such a magnitude that it could only have been ordered by a man who was criminally insane.

Jung Chang and Jon Halliday have not, in the whole of their narrative, a good word to say about Mao. In a normal biography, such an unequivocal denunciation would be both suspect and tedious. But the clear scholarship, and careful notes, of The Unknown Story provoke another reaction. Mao Tse-tung's evil, undoubted and well documented, is unequalled throughout modern history.

He was candid about his megalomania. 'Morality,' he wrote, 'does not have to be defined in relation to others. People like me want to satisfy our hearts to the full.' His heart was satisfied only by the domination of his people, a term which he defined so rigorously that, even when he was indisputable ruler of China, he still wanted to dictate the thoughts of its population to ensure that they never even thought of turning against him. He safeguarded his position by murdering millions of his innocent compatriots.

These days, it is fashionable to point out that Adolf Hitler had redeeming features. He was good with dogs and other people's children. Mao was hateful with everybody - his women, his wives and his son and daughter. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday deny him credit for the one episode in his blood-soaked career which, his apologists claim, at least adds an element of heroism to the savage saga: the Long March was a fraud.

After breaking with the Nationalist Movement, and fearing annihilation by Chiang Kai-shek's superior forces, Mao determined to take the Red Army to what he believed would be the security of the Russian border. In preparation for the evacuation, anyone regarded as unreliable was executed. The executions 'totalled thousands. The victims were hacked to death with knives and their bodies kicked down into a pit. When this pit was full, the rest were made to dig their own holes in the ground and were then hacked to death or buried alive'.

Accounts of that sort appear on almost every page of The Unknown Story, often describing tens of thousands or even millions of deaths. The purge of autumn 1934 was different only in so much as it preceded Mao's attempt to take 80,000 men and women (and his personal fortune) to north Shaanxi. When he arrived, his army was only 4,000 strong.

The Long March could have been ended almost before it started, had Chiang Kai-shek not given Mao a free passage to safety.

The marchers faced the daunting prospect of four lines of blockhouses. Yet these turned out to be no obstacle at all.

Chiang hoped to win the support of the warlords by convincing them that the Red Army was a threat to their powers. If that threat disappeared, as a result of Mao's annihilation, the debating point disappeared with it. So the Red Army was allowed to pass the blockhouses and over the Xiang river, creating 'one of the enduring myths of the 20th century.'

The stories of continual slaughter are so horrifically compelling that they enable the reader of The Unknown Story to ignore the problems of its literary style. To be told that 'by the beginning of 1948, the Reds controlled 160 million people' would normally provoke questions about who, why and where. But the narrative moves on to explain that, according to Mao, 10 per cent of the population were 'kulaks or landlords' and must be eliminated. 'Hundreds of thousands, possibly as many as a million, were killed or driven to suicide.' Inelegance loses its importance. The murder goes on, page after page.

Killing became an object in itself. When Mao decided to make the Great Leap Forward, which would allow China 'to overtake all capitalist countries in a fairly short time and become one of the richest, most advanced countries in the world', he had no qualms about 'driving peasants off the land and into factories', even if the sudden shortage of food meant that 'half of China may well have to die'. The famine which followed killed 38 million people in four years.

Meanwhile, Mao, with or without the support of the Soviet Union, was attempting to extend his power over neighbouring territories. Tibet was first courted, then occupied and subjected to the Great Destruction, an attack on the entire Tibetan culture which resulted in the death of half the adult male population. Mao was so successful in imposing his ideas on North Korea that the country's unofficial poet laureate wrote:

'Kill, kill more
For the farm, good rice and the quick collection of taxes.'

Mao Tse-tung died in his bed on 9 September 1976, according to The Unknown Story, unconcerned about his legacy to China and its people. However, 'Mao's portrait and his corpse still dominate Tiananmen Square in the heart of the Chinese capital. The communist regime declares itself to be Mao's heir and perpetuates the myth of Mao'. That sentence is the biography's epitaph and, more important, the biographers' stimulus to complete the 10 years of research on which their book is based. Perhaps 'labour of hate' is too strong a term to describe the devotion with which Mao is denounced. The Unknown Story means to inform. Its authors take it for granted that to know Mao is to loathe him.

An 800-page philippic is not an easy read, especially when it is written with such an undiscriminating devotion to detail. But anyone who wants to understand the world should struggle through The Unknown Story. Do not expect to enjoy the experience. It is terrible proof that absolute evil can sometimes triumph.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,6121,1499342,00.html

Wow. It's impossible to imagine a human being like that. What a truly sick individual.
 
This is news?


Anyway, books like that are pretty doubtfull sources to gather solid facts from. In a book which sole purpose is obviously only to discredit Mao, one should most likely take most of what's written with a grain of salt. Expressions like "Hundreds of thousands, perhaps even a million were killed or driven to suicide" seems, other than being quite inaccurate, hard to prove. How can you prove that hundreds of thousands were driven to suicide by government actions? Right.

This reminds me of that "Red Rubber" book I read about Leopold II. While it has obvious foundations in the truth, the hyperboles and 'artistic' liberties taken are so great they pretty much discredit any value the book might have as a historic survey.

That said, Mao was indeed no nice man. However, it also often pays to ask yourself the question: how was life in China before Mao? Right. Just as bad.
 
John Uskglass said:
That said, Mao was indeed no nice man. However, it also often pays to ask yourself the question: how was life in China before Mao? Right. Just as bad.
That's a joke, right?

No, life in China was cheerful and glorious. What, with the cozy famines, the happy happy joy joy Taiping Civil war (20 million dead), the fun nationwide Opium adiction, the Opium wars, the Boxer revolt, etc. etc.

China's basically been not a very nice place to live in from the middle of the 19th century onward.
That said, Europe wasn't either. Oi!
 
I'm pretty sure that Stalin had to have been worse than Hitler or Mao.

Seriously, they still don't know how many millions are dead by his orders.
 
Actually, Mao's body count is higher.


Mao: estimates around 35 million.
Stalin: estimates round 20 million.
 
Agreed- and this adds to our knowledge how? Sure Mao was an ideological extremist who used his ruthlessness and extremism to secure himself both power and wealth, and?

John, besides you making out a passage that says, "Mao was a bad guy who killed millions." what is the point of this post? It's old news.

What does this tell you- the danger of mixing a ruthless man with an ideological cause.

The biggest problem with Mao was that he didn't die sooner.
 
welsh said:
The biggest problem with Mao was that he didn't die sooner.
images%5Callemagne%5Chitler.jpg
stalin.jpg


So it was with this guys.

John Uskglass said:
Mao: Greatest Criminal of 20th Century?
Jebus said:
Mao: estimates around 35 million.
Stalin: estimates round 20 million.

Whatsoever, my personal opinion is that you can not rate how "bad" and "evil" a person was only looking at the number of deads he caused. Hitler started a war which costs 60,000,000 human lives. Was he thus worse than Stalin?
See their intentions and the historical circumstances. Mao and Stalin both took millions of lifes, they murdered for a certain ideology and practiced a zero-tolerance policy against political opponents. But none of them labeled certain types of humans as inferior and not worthy to live. Hitler did and therefore is the "Greatest Criminal of 20th Century" from my point of view. Look at the whole thing, not just at the body count.
Not that it would matter, tho 8)
 
Member of Khans said:
John Uskglass said:
Mao: Greatest Criminal of 20th Century?
Jebus said:
Mao: estimates around 35 million.
Stalin: estimates round 20 million.

Whatsoever, my personal opinion is that you can not rate how "bad" and "evil" a person was only looking at the number of deads he caused. Hitler started a war which costs 60,000,000 human lives. Was he thus worse than Stalin?
See their intentions and the historical circumstances. Mao and Stalin both took millions of lifes, they murdered for a certain ideology and practiced a zero-tolerance policy against political opponents. But none of them labeled certain types of humans as inferior and not worthy to live. Hitler did and therefore is the "Greatest Criminal of 20th Century" from my point of view. Look at the whole thing, not just at the body count.
Not that it would matter, tho 8)

I resent the fact that you have taken my statement out of context, and put in into a new one as to draw connections I did not make; and then attack me on this connection you have created. I really don't appreciate that.
 
I resent the fact that you have taken my statement out of context, and put in into a new one as to draw connections I did not make; and then attack me on this connection you have created. I really don't appreciate that.
I did not attack you, it was never my intention. I just made my own statement and never wanted to foist an opinion upon you, even though my post was mistakable. I'm so sorry for posting in a way that is capable of being misunderstood.
Can you forgive me, oh great Belgian Jebus? 8)

EDIT: fixed prepositions... I'll never learn it

EDIT2: Actually I attacked John on the topic title, but never mind
 
Jebus said:
Actually, Mao's body count is higher.


Mao: estimates around 35 million.
Stalin: estimates round 20 million.

Is that counting soldiers that died due to his inept military leadership?

Probably not, but in the "big picture" his fanatical orders cost the lives of a lot of his men. Men who only died because their leaders considered the ramifications of another retreat only in terms of prestige lost, instead of lives gained.

They eventually learned, though.
 
Lazarus Plus said:
They eventually learned, though.

Did they? Are they all that much better off now?

Perhaps from our, Western perspective, yes. Because they seem to be doing better economically. Yet, most values Chinese culture has ever stood for are still being supressed by a regime that is obviously only staying in power for the power itself. Not to mention the bloody opression they still instill on the Tibetans and the students who protested on the Square of Heavenly Peace in 1989; but hey: we all forget about that. They make 9% economic growth a year now, so we lock them in our arms and accept them as one of us.

They might eventually learn, though. Perhaps when we do too.
 
Lazarus Plus said:
I'm pretty sure that Stalin had to have been worse than Hitler or Mao.

Seriously, they still don't know how many millions are dead by his orders.
Without Stalin we couldn't have won the war. A proven fact. Stalin developed the country from an agricultural poverty to a nuclear superpower. Never had Russia been so powerful, as it was under Stalin's control. And "I'm pretty sure" it will never be so powerful again. Also. You can't prove the number of people he killed.
Maybe for Europe/America Stalin is as bad or even worse than Hitler, for Russia he is not.
 
Jebus said:
No, life in China was cheerful and glorious. What, with the cozy famines, the happy happy joy joy Taiping Civil war (20 million dead), the fun nationwide Opium adiction, the Opium wars, the Boxer revolt, etc. etc.

China's basically been not a very nice place to live in from the middle of the 19th century onward.
That said, Europe wasn't either. Oi!

Jebus, much of this was because of external issues; namley rediculously mercantile trade laws with the West. You know that.

Secondly, this is remarkably unfair. The PRC ruled during what should have been an age of prosperity and industrialization, with remarkably good weather and enough stability, independant of the Communist Party, to do these things. The Kumontang several decades before was already making progress without mass slaughter, inspite of the warlords, and they continued to make progress in Taiwan despite a near total lack of China's natural rescources. Instead, China was thrown into it's worst period ever, and this is right fucking after the Civil War and Sino-Japanese War Round II.

Thirdly, you are not comparing equivilent periods of Chinese history. The Nationalist Regiem, INSPITE of political chaos and constant attacks from the Japanese DID NOT result in bloody anarchy and the death of all educated Chinese.

I don't know how you can really compare the Nationalsit and Communist regiems in China without sayin the Nationalists where clearly less evil.
 
John Uskglass said:
I don't know how you can really compare the Nationalsit and Communist regiems in China without sayin the Nationalists where clearly less evil.
You clearly know jack shit about Chinese history.
 
Ekarderif said:
You clearly know jack shit about Chinese history.

The Nationalists were fascists, pure and simple, and they massacred political enemies (Shanghai, 1926, for example). The Communists, and Mao in particular, treated the people well during the Civil War and thus won their support. But after the war came the Great Leap Forward (in which millions starved to death- the actual figures will never be known) and after that the Cultural Revolution, in which 'enemies of the state' were imprisoned, drive to suicide, and killed outright for little or no reason at all.

And then, of course, there was Tianamen, in which thousands of inocent civilians were gunned down or literally ground under the tank treads of the People's Army.

Morality is a relative thing, and in this case the Communists did far more harm to China. To be fair, though, this was probably because they were in power for longer. Fascists wouldn't have done the chinese people any better.

In the light of this, he does know jack shit about chinese history. I wouldn't put Mao above Stalin as the most heinous dictator of the century, for Mao did get rid of what had been ailing China for a century and a half (Western Imperialism and domination).
 
My personal favourite for the most evil person of the century would be Pol Pot, now that man was the devil incarnate...
Now, Stalin, Mao and even Hitler did evil things to their enemies because they wanted more power but Pol Pot did horrible things to his own people (who weren't even his political enemies) because he was stupid and/or plain evil... IMHO that almost* makes him worst.

*I say almost because of the simple fact that SH&M have bigger bodycounts to their names.
 
Morality is a relative thing, and in this case the Communists did far more harm to China. To be fair, though, this was probably because they were in power for longer. Fascists wouldn't have done the chinese people any better.
This is trash. The Fascists would never have gone through the same idealogical shit that cost the lives of tens of millions with no actual improvment of industry like the Great Leap Forward. A Nationalist China would at the very least look like Deng Xiaoping or post-Xiaoping's China, and eventually it would have become Democratic like Taiwan or South Korea.

Under Mao, no industrialization happened because Mao thought he could just force the common farmer to make a furnace in his back yard, resulting in millions dead. This would not have happened in Natchina.

Under Mao, millions of students where brainwashed to have loyalty only to Mao and to read only one book, the Little Red Book. This generation would later do everything it could to wipe out every intellectual in China and kill tens of millions of the most educated Chinese people alive. This also would not have happened under Natchina.

Natchina might have had it's own atrocities, yes, but nothing on Chicom's scale.
 
John Uskglass said:
This is trash. The Fascists would never have gone through the same idealogical shit that cost the lives of tens of millions with no actual improvment of industry like the Great Leap Forward. A Nationalist China would at the very least look like Deng Xiaoping or post-Xiaoping's China, and eventually it would have become Democratic like Taiwan or South Korea.

No, you're right about the ideological shit. The Nationalists didn't really care about that (except, of course, as far as their enemies were concerned). But they were fairly brutal and Chaing-Kai shek was incompetent when it came to leading a military as well as building an economy. He would not have done a good job as head of China's economic machine, but I agree that he would not have done as terrible job as Mao had. Like I said, the Communists were worse, but fascists wouldn't have done such a fantastic job in charge of China. It was only after Chaing that Taiwan began it's economic ascent.
 
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