Poor people are stupid?

TyloniusFunk

It Wandered In From the Wastes
I'm responding to UncannyGarlic's post here because it is getting off-topic where it is.

Discussion recap:

UncannyGarlic said:
TyloniusFunk said:
UncannyGarlic said:
I'll say that yes, people are stupid and the lower you go on the education and/or income graph, the stupider people are on average.

Regarding the lower/working class: people with less money can afford less education/intellectual enrichment and therefore are more often "ignorant". "Stupid", on the other hand, knows no bounds, demographic or otherwise.

Yes they are ignorant but given the variety of definitions for stupid, it depends on usage. In this case it was clear that the use was as follows:
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
...
1. lacking in common sense or intelligence
People with lower incomes and education levels ("working class") are statistically less intelligent, hence they are stupid.

Please reference something if you want to insist that the working class are "statistically less intelligent". It's true that the working class will have less access to education and other resources (developmental nutrition), but you cannot say that a certain class is less intelligent.
 
There is much more to success than intelligence alone. Drive, perseverance, background, psychological makeup... And I'm looking at the brown-noser who's dumb as a doornail and yet makes more money than me, who scored top of the class in IQ in high-school. Math/physics/chemistry oriented high-school at that.
 
Hmm, that is a very untrue statement. While the poor people can afford less education, they also tend to see it as more important. The rich people, on the other hand, who have everything available, tend to get lazy and not make use of opportunities - I go to a private college and there's some 1000 people here who are rich but do nothing but play around, because they know the parents will give them money and arrange a job anyway.

There's of course exceptions, but many bright people tend to come from middle class and lower. "Poor people are stupid" is just a derogatory statement with little objective basis that the rich use to make themselves feel better, an excuse as to why they are rich without doing anything.
 
At university there's this feeling:"beware the poor people". They'll study and work and do pretty much anything to get out of the misery. And if they're smart, they can overcome most odds.
 
Education has nothing to do with intelligence anyway, intelligence is inate, it is knowledge that you gain.

Who was it that said ''I never let school get in the way of my education?'' - Oh yes, Mark Twain off course.
 
^ I would personally argue that intelligence is not innate. While I could agree that in general some people have more natural ability than others for certain things, humans as a species adapt quickly. The innate abilities are not a guarantee of success. You're right - it is knowledge that we gain, but I rather see education as a tool to develop and enchance our intelligence. Mind you, it does not have to be formal education, which is what M.T. was talking about, and the quote is somewhat misplaced. The only reason I mentioned college in the first place was because it was a prime example of the attitudes of different social classes that I have first-hand experience with.

Back to the topic: the hard-working ones can overcome the smarties through effort. Now, in the rare case that a smart person actually works hard, you get someone you can truly define as a very "intelligent person".

However, your opinion doesn't support the point that the income affects the intelligence (since you define it as innate ability), so I assume you agree with my opinion that the status does not make you smart, albeit for different reasons.
 
From my experience I'd say rich people tend to be much more ignorant than the middle class. On the other, I'm in a middle class so I may be biased. :) I actually tried to finish university twice, but I quit both times because I felt it didn't have anything really useful to offer me besides some stupid fucking paper which makes me look smarter in some people's eyes. Now I have harder time finding a job because of this, yet I still don't regret it. I preffer increasing my intelligence on my own, by reading whatever I choose to read. Education might be a good concept, but I hate educational system in my country.. I don't know how it's like elsewhere though, might be really useful in other countries.

P.S. I find it funny how this discussion originated from a "simple guy wouldn't know what republic is" argument in another thread. Like knowing what a republic is makes you intelligent..
 
Aye stupidity is nonbiased. It can be found in wealthy people, poor people etc. However, poor people might have more trouble covering their stupidity with a good education because they often have to forfeit some of their studies to work more or face greater challenges at home that the wealthier person doesn't have to worry about. So it's not that poor people are stupider, it's just easier to see it.
 
All poor people are stupid, but unfortunately, not all stupid people are poor.

Or whatever.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
^You're right - it is knowledge that we gain, but I rather see education as a tool to develop and enchance our intelligence.

I would say, Intelligence is the tool for the application of skill, and knowledge is the skill. You can be very intelligent but not very knowledgeable due to lack of an education, or any other kind of learning/self teaching. Or you can be knowleadgeble but not particularly bright.

Or you can be blessed by both being born with a good level of intelligence (I believe its genetic) and hopefully aquire a good education. Then you are set. You have both the innate tools and the acquired knowledge to suceed. That is what I think.

Ausdoerrt said:
However, your opinion doesn't support the point that the income affects the intelligence (since you define it as innate ability), so I assume you agree with my opinion that the status does not make you smart, albeit for different reasons.

Yes, for reasons stated above, I do not believe income affects intelligence in the sligthest, but it probably does affect knowledge as the richer get better chances at good education. If income was dependent on intelligence we would not have George Bush, Paris Hilton, etc etc etc...
 
Working class and intelligence are fairly vague terms. Do we mean manual manufacturing workers and IQ for example? We don't really have the concept of social classes in Australia anymore.

I would expect performance in standardised tests (academic abilities) would be lower on average for poor people. I don't feel like searching for papers this late at night.

Education does affect many skills, but general intelligence (Not the technical term but rather my own vagueness, principally rapid problem solving/ability to understand complexity) is ultimately inherited in my opinion. Genes provide the potential, then environment, and an element of chance, the results.

I know several brilliant people who were from a working class (England) background, but who used their intelligence to enter highly skilled careers with better incomes. They would no longer be identified as poor or working class. They married clever and well educated spouses, and have clever children. Such a situation is probably not uncommon. Other traits such as motivation and home culture may affect the outcome, but you might expect a gradual poaching of talent. Sounds evil, but there probably has to be a specific mix of genes and environmental conditions to lead to upward mobility, emphasis on genes.

You can't be dumb as a doornail and function as a skilled professional, because your work is just too complex. Some have argued that you should let anyone study medicine due to GP shortages, but wouldn't really want to spend resources on people who might kill them, if the candidates managed to pass their exams that is.

Even with the best education, it can be fruitless. You might get slow students to improve, but they'll reach a (lower) ceiling. One can learn how to learn, and strategies to think more efficiently, but the hardware will still provide limits. More knowledge will increase your skills, but general intelligence will not be changed significantly. This seems to trouble people. The brighter student can do better with significantly less effort than the less able one who works more. If a gifted student works hard, they'll leave their classmates in the dust. Working doesn't necessarily make them more intelligent, but is more related to their personality, maturity and values. It might be smart not to get 95% on every test when it will merely waste your youth and have next to no impact upon your particular career options. Discipline, study skills and good habits are still vital though. University can provide skills, expert knowledge and rigour that just isn't available elsewhere, although it is sad that people study things they have little or no interest in, which is a waste.

On rich vs middle class, I believe that intelligence is less important. Many of the most wealthy people I know are no smarter, and usually less so, but are in careers with specific trait and skill sets that bring in the cash. Some of these traits appear to be confidence, perseverance and chiefly, good judgement. Again, they have a certain level of brains, required to understand complex problems. Direct inheritance of wealth is a different matter.

I saw a comedy video with Paris Hilton yesterday that actually impressed me. I don't really know anything about her but she didn't appear to be as stupid as I expected, and can at least act a little, at least once.
 
quietfanatic said:
I saw a comedy video with Paris Hilton yesterday that actually impressed me. I don't really know anything about her but she didn't appear to be as stupid as I expected, and can at least act a little, at least once.

That is a very interesting coincidence. I saw that video a while ago and had the same impression. That is the one time I saw her and though 'Wait a minute... maybe she isn't really as stupid as the lets out to be' ... or that maybe she only pretends to be stupid.

I mean, all the rest i've seen/heard/read of her is awful, but that one that one part that got me thinking.

Multidirectional said:
I actually tried to finish university twice, but I quit both times because I felt it didn't have anything really useful to offer me besides some stupid fucking paper which makes me look smarter in some people's eyes. Now I have harder time finding a job because of this, yet I still don't regret it. I preffer increasing my intelligence on my own, by reading whatever I choose to read.

See, this is something I don't understand. Why do people take subjects at university they DON'T LIKE? I mean, I hear all the time people moaning about this, including a lot of friends of mine, and it simply baffles me. Im doing International Relations because that has always fascinated me since like 15 or so, especially history, politics, and its application in the international arena. As a result, I am thoroughly enjoying and intend to complete my course.

Do you guys not get to chose what degree you will take? Or is it just that you didn't really put much thought into what you would do at uni until its too late (some friends of mine have done this).
 
Chancellor Kremlin said:
See, this is something I don't understand. Why do people take subjects at university they DON'T LIKE?

See.. both times I took these subjects (first time - Psychology, second - Ethics) I thought I would like them and both times got disappointed.. Most of the time I felt like my lecturers knew less about the subjects than I did, especially in psychology were I would constantly get into arguments with them. Because of this, it didn't sit too well with me that these people are the ones "evaluating" me at the end of the semester. As something that claims to be studying human soul (or so I was told), psychology seemed way too cold for me. I kinda liked Ethics at first, but it quickly became, I felt, redundant so I would just fall asleep during a class, something that never happened to me while I was still in school. Also selection of subjects in my country seems rather poor to me cause I just didn't see anything else that would inspire me to try again. But really, I guess I'm just better at studying on my own as education for me is something related to spiritual growth, not achieving some bullshit social position, which is superficial anyhow. I do however accept a possibility that I will someday actually finish university.. But I doubt that will make me smarter, as I see plenty of people with university degrees that are very ignorant, which makes them more dangerous than usual idiots, cause they think they are smart because they have this nice paper..

Regarding Paris Hilton - acting like a dumb blonde may function like a shortcut to success (well that, and supposedly "stolen" sex tapes), so of course it's possible that big part of her stupidity is just an act. I couldn't say, however, that I tolerate such choices.
George Bush on the other hand.. It did cross my mind that his retardation might be an act, since presidents are there mostly to entertain public anyhow, but probably that's not the case. In many cases, while listening to him talk, I would think "wow, president of USA speaks English worse than me, and I've never even left my country!"
 
TyloniusFunk said:
I'm responding to UncannyGarlic's post here because it is getting off-topic where it is.

Discussion recap:

UncannyGarlic said:
TyloniusFunk said:
UncannyGarlic said:
I'll say that yes, people are stupid and the lower you go on the education and/or income graph, the stupider people are on average.

Regarding the lower/working class: people with less money can afford less education/intellectual enrichment and therefore are more often "ignorant". "Stupid", on the other hand, knows no bounds, demographic or otherwise.

Yes they are ignorant but given the variety of definitions for stupid, it depends on usage. In this case it was clear that the use was as follows:
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
...
1. lacking in common sense or intelligence
People with lower incomes and education levels ("working class") are statistically less intelligent, hence they are stupid.

Please reference something if you want to insist that the working class are "statistically less intelligent". It's true that the working class will have less access to education and other resources (developmental nutrition), but you cannot say that a certain class is less intelligent.


Well, in The Netherlands it isn't like that...
It's pretty strange here in the Netherlands poor people seem to be way smarter and more experienced than the richer.
I can call my dad smart with ease and he 'belongs' in the working class.
Complete nonsense if you ask me...
 
Rich people are usually educated, but being educated does not mean you are smart, intelligent, clever or cunning. I think poor people have more in the way of cunning and street smarts, while rich people usually are either more educated or intelligent than poor people. Still, the problem that caused many rich people to fall is that they stagnated. That's the advantage of the poor - they don't stagnate.
 
Multidirectional said:
rich people tend to be much more ignorant

Here's a gross generalization that I can agree with. At least the lower class tends to be more aware of their own ignorance.

Generally, I was posting to elucidate the differences between ignorance and stupidity/intelligence. I guess we can't have this argument without a semantic component, so that's pretty dull. Intelligence I take to mean innate ability: rate of learning, rate of computation, and application of logical intuition. Other abilities would also appear as intelligence though aren't necessary to be intelligent: eidetic memory, empathy, knowledge. About the last: knowledge does not equate to intelligence; one may know much yet understand little; conversely, the most intelligent being can extrapolate everything from nothing.
 
How does it go?

"I know lots of educated idiots."

Yes that's the one. The funny thing is that it is true. I know plenty of people with degrees and no fucking sense. I know plenty of poor people, like my friend who is practically a genius, who earn their way through college by busting their ass.
 
You can't be dumb as a doornail and function as a skilled professional, because your work is just too complex. Some have argued that you should let anyone study medicine due to GP shortages, but wouldn't really want to spend resources on people who might kill them, if the candidates managed to pass their exams that is.[/quote[

There are skilled professionals aplenty who are "dumb as a doornail" in all other aspects of life. Having a skill for a certain job does not necessarily mean you need to be good at anything else, especially now that specialization is valued more than erudition.
 
I'd say material success is more a matter of virtue (in the classical sense) than intelligence.

Intelligence, competence, and a desire to improve your situation are all virtues that, in some combination, can lead you to material success. Contentedness is probably the biggest enemy to material advancement, followed by ignorance. If you're satisfied with your situation, whatever it is, you're not going to see the point in doing the hard work necessary to advance. If you're ignorant, you may not even realize it's possible to improve your situation.

That being said, the poor people I know and the dumb people I know are groups that overlap almost completely. I know a few smart, poor people, but they're poor by choice.
 
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