Radiation and Half-Lifes

[Eternal]

What is the half-life on weapons grade plutonium which I'm guessing is what was in the bombs fired in 2077? I was thinking about how much radiation would be left from exploded or unexploded bombs after 200 years. Assuming the large number of bombs that were required to destroy America would it even be safe to leave the Vaults after 200years or on the flip side, would the radiation have subsided to the point of negligence? I mean todays society has more residual radiation in our atmosphere than cultures 200+ years ago I believe I read that it was close to triple what it was in the 1600s (don't quote me on that though)

So anyone know the answer to this quandry?

 

[Buxbaum666]

The most significant isotope of plutonium is 239Pu, with a half-life of 24,100 years; this isotope is fissile and is used in most modern nuclear weapons.

I'm not sure if it would be "safe" after 200 years. The reconstruction of Hiroshima started 4 years after the bomb.

 

[Eternal]

A half-life of 24,100 years eh? Hmm I wonder what kind of conditions the reconstruction of Hiroshima was rebuilt under (like how many areas were TOO radioactive to enter, what were they planing to do about that radiation, and what sort of levels of radiation was considered 'work safe' with the right kind of equipment and protection.


We only droped 1 bomb on Hiroshima, but does radiation stack? I.E. would droping 2 bombs significantly increase the amount of time it would take for an area to become habitable again? Or would they decay at aprox the same rate thus making the only repurcussion of droping 2 bombs in the same area being an increase in destruction of property and life.

 

[Nullifidian]

Radiation is somewhat cumulative.

Halflife isn't the be all end all measure of how dangerous the radiation is. The biggest measure is the TYPE of decay.

Alpha decay is harmless. It emits alpha particles which are essenitally helium nuclei. Alpha particles are blocked by thin surfaces like paper or your skin. Beta decay is pretty nasty though. Beta decay si from fast electrons. These can be blocked by aluminum but penetrate skin and organ tissue. They can cause damage to your DNA.

The worst however is gamma radiation. Gamma radiation goes through almost everything. It's the type of radiation that can kill you pretty quickly. Gamma radiation typically only occurs with bombs.



Plutonium 239 decays via alpha decay which is harmless. However it decays into Uranium 235 which is also radioactive. That decays via alpha decay though as well. The NEXT element is the dangerous one which decays via beta decay and a halflife of only 25 days. That means it spits out a lot of particles rather rapidly.


The thing is, the radiation you get at a bombsite isn't from leftover plutonium. it's from other stuff that got changed. For example, anywhere there is steel and radiation, you get Cobalt 60. Cobalt 60 is a deadly radioactive material with a halflife of about 5 years. Cobalt 60 is deadly because it decays by emitting a fast electron and 2 gamma rays. Standing next to Cobalt 60 is a good wya ot die a horrible painful death. Cobalt 60 is created over time in any situation when steel is sitting in an environment with long halflife materials. So, for example, if remnants of Uranium or Plutonium are hanging around, they will gradually decay and any that is near steel will create Cobalt 60. Since Uranium has a halflife of something like 700 million years, you'll get Cobalt 60 over that entire period as well.


The end result though is that you wouldn't experience big doses of radiation out in the open but rather any time you wandered next to any exposed steel.


If you want to know more about it, ask anyone who served in the US Navy on a Submarine or at any nuclear reactor. Cobalt 60 is one of those nasty things no one likes to talk about in public.

 

[Ihniwid]

Radiation is somewhat cumulative.

Halflife isn't the be all end all measure of how dangerous the radiation is. The biggest measure is the TYPE of decay.

Alpha decay is harmless. It emits alpha particles which are essenitally helium nuclei. Alpha particles are blocked by thin surfaces like paper or your skin. Beta decay is pretty nasty though. Beta decay si from fast electrons. These can be blocked by aluminum but penetrate skin and organ tissue. They can cause damage to your DNA.

The worst however is gamma radiation. Gamma radiation goes through almost everything. It's the type of radiation that can kill you pretty quickly. Gamma radiation typically only occurs with bombs.



Plutonium 239 decays via alpha decay which is harmless. However it decays into Uranium 235 which is also radioactive. That decays via alpha decay though as well. The NEXT element is the dangerous one which decays via beta decay and a halflife of only 25 days. That means it spits out a lot of particles rather rapidly.


The thing is, the radiation you get at a bombsite isn't from leftover plutonium. it's from other stuff that got changed. For example, anywhere there is steel and radiation, you get Cobalt 60. Cobalt 60 is a deadly radioactive material with a halflife of about 5 years. Cobalt 60 is deadly because it decays by emitting a fast electron and 2 gamma rays. Standing next to Cobalt 60 is a good wya ot die a horrible painful death. Cobalt 60 is created over time in any situation when steel is sitting in an environment with long halflife materials. So, for example, if remnants of Uranium or Plutonium are hanging around, they will gradually decay and any that is near steel will create Cobalt 60. Since Uranium has a halflife of something like 700 million years, you'll get Cobalt 60 over that entire period as well.


The end result though is that you wouldn't experience big doses of radiation out in the open but rather any time you wandered next to any exposed steel.


If you want to know more about it, ask anyone who served in the US Navy on a Submarine or at any nuclear reactor. Cobalt 60 is one of those nasty things no one likes to talk about in public.

Thats creepy man. How do you know all this, just an avid reader or are you one of these...Navy people?

 

[DJS4000]

Alpha decay is harmless. It emits alpha particles which are essenitally helium nuclei. Alpha particles are blocked by thin surfaces like paper or your skin.

alpha particles can be pretty dangerous if ingested or inhaled and kill within days. they may alter DNA, too. but that's the least of your problems.

 

[Nullifidian]

Alpha decay is harmless. It emits alpha particles which are essenitally helium nuclei. Alpha particles are blocked by thin surfaces like paper or your skin.

alpha particles can be pretty dangerous if ingested or inhaled and kill within days. they may alter DNA, too. but that's the least of your problems.

People aren't ingesting uranium or plutonium on a regular basis. And if it's it's in water, then the water becomes irradiated and causes a whole other mess of problems anyway that are worse than alpha particles.

As for inhaling, just wear a gas mask and you're good to go. My point was that alpha particles typically aren't that dangerous because there are very very simple protection options. Walking through an area that somehow only had alpha radiation wouldn't hurt you in all likelihood. Especially since we are hit with them rather regularly.

As for the Cobalt 60 thing, I work with a guy who served on nuclear subs and worked in nuclear power plants and he was telling me all about it in a discussion about Fast Breeder Reactors we were having and whether or not it's possible to have a nuclear reactor that generates no radioactive waste. The assumption is made by most people that the only nuclear waste is spent fuel and he pointed out that spent fuel is the least of your problems. The FBR uses liquid sodium as a coolant and sodium has a wicked short halflife so it's far less dangerous than using water in that respect.


As for DNA damage being the least of your worries, that's wrong. While thermal burns from gamma radiation might seem a more immediate threat, if not severe enough to kill you, then it is not in fact the more serious threat. DNA damage can cause a very quick death. You see, DNA is responsible for all the wonderful chemical reaction in your body. DNA instructs your body to make certain proteins which perform certain functions in your body. Alter it, and essential hormones are produced and you die. Alter it and poisonous proteins that do really nasty things are produced and you die. Alter it and cells which need to perform essential functions like, say, respiration, cease to function and you die. It's a pretty nasty way to go and depending on the exposure, you can die pretty damn fast.

 

[DJS4000]

<snip>

relax, i was just adding some info and correcting minor errors. that is, stating that alpha radiation was entirely harmless, which it isn't.

second, the major risk with nuclear fallout is, as a matter of fact, ingestion or inhalation of activated particles in a direct or indirect manner. so it is not that uncommon. of course, no one would chew away on a chunk of uranium or plutonium, but that was not the point.

finally, regarding the DNA. i was referring to ingested alpha particles here. since they are the most ionizing particles the damage from radiation poisoning, i.e. internal bleeding and paralysis, is far more severe.

 

[schatzi]

very interesting.

but why is it safe in hiroschima today, if cobalt 60 is such an issue? since surely there is uranium residue around the bomb site, any metal would get that cobalt 60 going.

 

[Nullifidian]

very interesting.

but why is it safe in hiroschima today, if cobalt 60 is such an issue? since surely there is uranium residue around the bomb site, any metal would get that cobalt 60 going.

Clean-up can fix that. It's easy to find radioactive materials thanks to that wonderful invention, the Geiger Counter.

 

[Eternal]

Also this got me thinking, typically you hear of radioactive waste being stored in barrel drums(this is popular assumption at least) aren't those drums made out of steel? Are they lined with lead?

As for Hiroshima, my guess is they sent in a team of people to remove as much of the Uranium 235 as they could, with that out of there the Cobalt 60 would stop being produced and then they'd just have to wait for its short half-life cycle to end before its relatively safe.

In the Fallout universe so much of the junk you see making up shacks and fortifications are made out of steel I'd assume as long as they are far away from the radioactive material it wouldn't be an issue but there are plenty of times they do build close to it. Like in FO2 where there is that group of arms traders surrounded by a moat of toxic waste (btw I hate that guy guarding the bridge, I've been stuck inside there SO many times because he bugs out and can't / wont move)

Also I wonder if Interplay knew of the irony of naming he group 'Brotherhood of Steel' (and yes I know the suits aren't made out of steel.)

 

[Bloody William]

The bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were devastating for their time, but are less powerful than some of our top conventional bombs today. The nuclear weapons we currently have, and presumably the nuclear weapons that saturated the planet during the war are many factors more powerful than Fat Man and Little Boy, and probably have much more fissile material in them.

 

[K.C. Cool]

I have a buddy in the Navy's nuke department, they have to go through a lot of training above and beyond what is required for reactor operation. (Histories of reactors, etc.)

Come to think of it, I have another friend majoring in nuclear science. I should talk to these guys and make games or something.