Roleplaying in Fallout Tactics

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Being fairly new to the fallout universe (I got the first two about 2 months or so ago, haven't beaten either :). Up to SF in F2, and the Master in F1.), I still thought I may offer some new opinions. I bought Fallout Tactics right away. After getting over some initial bugs (I just changed my drivers, no problems there), it hasn't crashed once on me, and I've been able to make some conclusions. Namely, this one:

The roleplaying element in FT is comparable, if not equal to, the roleplaying element in Fallouts 1 and 2.

Why do I say this? Look at it - yes, it is a tactical game. But it is an immersive tactical game. I feel, when playing, that I truly am the commander of a small, elite BOS squad. When I send several of my best men on a private mission (Side note: I do this quite a bit. My main character, Rage, and Stoma usually are used to scout out an area, with Trevor often used to guard Keith, and Farsight exploring in a different direction. BTW, I'm in Preoria.), I feel that it is really me that's sending them on a mission. In Fallout 1 and 2, I felt that I was the vault dweller/chosen one, and that my mission was so crucial to the survival of my vault/village. As you can see, I am a very big roleplayer. So, I made the most of FT - I roleplay a specific type of squad, with specific rules, with specific submissions within the mission, and I find it to be a far more enjoyable game as a result. Sure, I could just bust in and do my main mission, but this level of self-imposed interaction really adds something to the game.

So, for all of you bashing it for not being "Fallout" enough, make it Fallout enough for yourself - set up rules for your squad, govern them. Only let them use weapons you think appropriate. If your squad is dedicated to the Shotgun, then dedicate yourself to shotguns. Make the game fun for yourself; it doesn't take much work.



And one last thing: What sort of squad do I play? We are a very clean squad. No chems other than stims and anti-rads. And every person has a specific set of duties. For example, Rage and Stoma are my point men; Keith heals, and only heals. Trevor is backup, tossing grenades as needed. Farsight is my reconaissance. And my main character pulls them all together, acting as needed, based on the circumstances. It makes the game really enjoyable.


But hell, what do I know? Maybe I RP too much :).
 
I know what you mean. People say that Chess isn't a role-playing game, but I really think they just don't use their imagination enough. I mean, I really do feel like I'm a king on a checkered field of battle, directing my troops here and there to position themselves to capture their king. I have difficult decisions to make, like sacrificing my smaller pawns to protect my interests in my queen, and getting good field position. Maybe I just like role-playing too much also. I mean, chess is so *immersive* also. Did you know that there are people who dedicate their entire *lives* to that game? Come on, how can Chess not be a role-playing game?

Let me ask you this then. If you really feel like you're leading a squad from the Brotherhood of Steel into an area, do you feel like you're leading an army of trolls and orcs in Warcraft? Do you make up little stories why your SCV's are repairing bunkers that are being attacked by At-At wannabes in Starcraft? Where is the role-playing in FOT? How do you do any role-playing with your character? Combat is not role-playing you know--it's just a filler. Maybe you got a better version of the game than I did, but I don't get dialog options in FOT. I can hold in-depth discussions over the effects of radscorpion venom in FOT. In FOT, there are three types of people in the game--those you barter with, those who give you your mission and (99% of everybody else) those you must kill.

News flash for you-- DIABLO IS NOT A ROLE-PLAYING GAME! DIABLO IS AN ACTION/ADVENTURE GAME! FINAL FANTASY IS AN INTERACTIVE MOVIE! Just because a game has levels and statistics doesn't mean it's a role-playing game. Those are merely borrowed elements from a real role-playing game. Get a clue.
 
Perhaps:

And I can appreciate the sentiment in playing like that...but the game is utterly shallow and soul-less compared to Fallout and JA2. That gets it both ways.

Fallout had definable characters. Ian had a personality, Tycho, Dogmeat, et alia. JA2...who the HELL could forget Grunty's "Vat a spectacular way to die!" whenever he witnessed someone's head exploding like a ripe melon? Each character there had...(drum roll, please)...character! :) In Fallout Tactics, it's like picking out a sirlion steak at a butcher shop; ordering the meat for the next mission. They are barely above the character separation in X-Com, in which they have a small blurb on their character screen. Other than that, they are cannon fodder and completely soul-less.

Roleplaying isn't my gripe, really. I know it wasn't meant to be a CRPG. But it *was* promised to be in the Fallout Universe (those who have a taste in the retro post-apocalyptical nuke-scare love this game - many just don't get it). It *was* also meant to be tactical. I find that the game inherently cripples tactics from being used. As I've said before, it would be like trying to incorporate DOOM levels into System Shock 2. It just doesn't work. If you've played JA2 with stealth and multi-squad play, then you'd understand why some of us are wrinkling our noses at how this kind of fails to be a comparable tactical game.

Hell, if it wasn't for the vehicles and multiplayer capabilities, I'd have to say this is a cock-up compared to the original X-Com. If it wasn't for these couple of features, it would be the [link:somethingawful.efront.com/games/raisingdead/index.htm|Raising Dead] of the Squad Tactical genre. As such, it's a schtick that pulls this game. How far, we'll have to see. But single-player has very little replayability, and multiplayer will be as relevent as Soldier of Fortune, and note how that game became a yawn-fest once it's gimmick became old hat.

If Tactics had even half the capability of JA2 or had the open-endedness, then it might be halfway enjoyable. Instead it's just like Final Fantasy 8, running through endless and boring showdown battles with little gibbets of enjoyable stuff in-between. Though, with FFVIII, it was FMV, which is a complete yawn for me because I value a good, solid game rather than eye-candy.

[font color=orange]
--------------------------------------------
Dennis Leary stole my song! That...asshole!
--------------------------------------------
"Robert, your time has come!"

"OOOH! Thank you, Master!"

"Don't mention it."

*Robert explodes in a shower of sparks*
--------------------------------------------
It's me, Jack Brown! The wind-up ass-hole!
--------------------------------------------

[font color=white]INTERPLAY: REDEFINING BAD BUSINESS

=========================
Try Arcanum, by those who brought you the first Fallout:
http://fp.geocities.com/jonaac/2.jpg
​
 
RE: Perhaps:

I've played JA2, and to be honest, I didn't like it. I would not be enjoying FT like I do if there were no CTB. I just don't see how TB fits in with a tactical game... just IMO though. JA2 is an excellent game, but it's not to my style. Maybe I've just never gotten into tactical games before, and so I'm just an uninformed moron :). But what I like is what I like, and I like FT... now to just get this damn firewall to work.

And I would like to thank you for not taking the course of action that "Old-School Role Player" took, which was to insult me instead of just disagreeing. At least not all of this community is hostile.
 
RE: Perhaps:

[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-01 AT 10:51PM (GMT)[p]Grr, double post.
 
RE: Perhaps:

>
>Roleplaying isn't my gripe, really.
>I know it wasn't meant
>to be a CRPG.
>But it *was* promised to
>be in the Fallout Universe
>(those who have a taste
>in the retro post-apocalyptical nuke-scare
>love this game - many
>just don't get it).

Should be:
>
>Roleplaying isn't my gripe, really.
>I know it wasn't meant
>to be a CRPG.
>But it *was* promised to
>be in the Fallout Universe
>(those who have a taste
>in the retro post-apocalyptical nuke-scare
>love the Fallout CRPG game - many
>just don't get it).
 
RE: Perhaps:

>And I would like to thank
>you for not taking the
>course of action that "Old-School
>Role Player" took, which was
>to insult me instead of
>just disagreeing. At least
>not all of this community
>is hostile.

Actually he was rather sarcastic, mixed with a bit of bluntness, but altogether attacking your argument instead of you yourself.

In essence, and to sum up what he was saying, is that you postulating that there's RP in Fallout Tactics would be the same to saying that there's RP in chess, Final Fantasy and Diablo. Agreed, it's a bit extreme, but there's a difference between FOT and Fallout CRPG. Fallout CRPG's characters interacted with you, depending on how you played. Be an evil sonovabitch, then get treated like one. Be good, then be respected or loathed depending on the person. Do favors for someone, it improves your standing with them. Tactics seems to lack that part, but JA2 does have that part. It's the pipe-dream that Daggerfall attempted, and did to a certain extent, but the game's emptiness kind of waned the importance of it.

(And now we're going to get some screaming monkey about how Fallout Tactics wasn't supposed to be a CRPG and how we're all morons, nevermind the promises of keeping it to the Fallout universe and all relevent characters there had a soul. :-) )

As for TB in JA2, it's perhaps the best one ever done. Takes a bit getting used to, but if you do it right, it's almost real-time without the fustration of trying to grow another ten fingers. Real-time single-player tactical without a pause feature to issue orders is a joke. I don't know if they've added that or not, because it's been noted in many reviews I've read. Either they didn't put it in, or they need to hire a more talented chimp to do their documentation. Turb-based is fun in it's own right, and does take some getting used to.

It's not TB that has me drawn to JA2, it's the execution and presentation of the game, with all the features and depth they added in. I enjoyed the "CTB" in X-Com: Apocalypse, and it was pretty fairly done.

[font color=orange]
--------------------------------------------
Dennis Leary stole my song! That...asshole!
--------------------------------------------
"Robert, your time has come!"

"OOOH! Thank you, Master!"

"Don't mention it."

*Robert explodes in a shower of sparks*
--------------------------------------------
It's me, Jack Brown! The wind-up ass-hole!
--------------------------------------------

[font color=white]INTERPLAY: REDEFINING BAD BUSINESS

=========================
Try Arcanum, by those who brought you the first Fallout:
http://fp.geocities.com/jonaac/2.jpg
​
 
RE: Perhaps:

[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-01 AT 11:36PM (GMT)[p]Hmm.. after reading some of your posts, I see what your major problems are. To restate them here for my reference:

1: Not Fallout enough.

2: Not tactical enough.

I do not agree with either of your complaints, but I can see where you're coming from. Now, this might be because I'm so new to the universe, but I immediately realized, upon playing the game, that this would be a different area. Fallout 1 and 2 both took place on the West Coast. FT takes place in the midwest. How does this affect atmosphere? It's very obvious - the two areas are supposedly separate, with very little interaction. Within the many years from the dropping of the bomb to FT, they are going to evolve, culture wise, differently. So, it IS Fallout enough. The difference lies in that it's Fallout in a different place - from everything I can see, this is a logical conclusion as to how the universe would evolve in this area. I have no doubts that the East Coast, if ever done, would be more diverse still.

As for the tactical part, I agree that it's possible to just bully your way through the game, which is where my style of play comes in. I make the game tactical for me. I don't run through, I enjoy it, and it becomes more strategic, trying to play within a set of rules that I make for myself. Granted, this is no excuse for tactical out of the box, but it works for me :).
 
RE: Perhaps:

[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-01 AT 11:35PM (GMT)[p]Damn, double posted AGAIN!
 
RE: Perhaps:

I know what you mean, all of the characters in my squad have their own personalities and favorite tactics and weapons. You can't tell me they don't just because it isn't really setup that way in the game. It's a lot more fun that way, but maybe I just like fallout too much
 
RE: Perhaps:

>
>Hmm.. after reading some of your
>posts, I see what your
>major problems are. To
>restate them here for my
>reference:
>
>1: Not Fallout enough.
>
>2: Not tactical enough.
>
>I do not agree with either
>of your complaints, but I
>can see where you're coming
>from. Now, this might
>be because I'm so new
>to the universe, but I
>immediately realized, upon playing the
>game, that this would be
>a different area. Fallout
>1 and 2 both took
>place on the West Coast.
> FT takes place in
>the midwest. How does
>this affect atmosphere? It's
>very obvious - the two
>areas are supposedly separate, with
>very little interaction. Within
>the many years from the
>dropping of the bomb to
>FT, they are going to
>evolve, culture wise, differently.
>So, it IS Fallout enough.
> The difference lies in
>that it's Fallout in a
>different place - from everything
>I can see, this is
>a logical conclusion as to
>how the universe would evolve
>in this area. I
>have no doubts that the
>East Coast, if ever done,
>would be more diverse still.

And Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's mother?

Seriously, the Universe (setting) of Fallout is retro post-apocalyptic. East coast or west coast, it doesn't matter - it's still retro. Your argument would be akin to saying that on Tattooine, Darth Vader is Luke's father, but on Yavin he's Luke's mother. Just as bizarre and out of place, really.

Sticking up a few WWII posters isn't going to cut it. Neither is ripping a few car styles from the old Fallout games and pretending that's enough. Rust and just general decay isn't quite the part either. The styles of the robots in FOT doesn't fit - they lack the boxy/neo-boxy and cigar shapes commonly found in retro pulp. The robots in FOT look like they should belong in Star Wars instead, perhaps. Various other things just don't belong either. Plus they've horrendously screwed many concepts over. Power armor (they can't rust - technically impossible), deathclaws (originating from lizards, but now they are obvious cross-bred with sheep), and numerous other things which I've gotten really tired of repeating because it's always to someone who's never played the original [link:www.interplay.com/fallout|Fallout] or perhaps in a cursory manner nor have a grasp of the theme of the game - and then go "it's perfectly fine".

Be careful when sticking your fingers into this tar baby.

>
>As for the tactical part, I
>agree that it's possible to
>just bully your way through
>the game, which is where
>my style of play comes
>in. I make the
>game tactical for me.
>I don't run through, I
>enjoy it, and it becomes
>more strategic, trying to play
>within a set of rules
>that I make for myself.
> Granted, this is no
>excuse for tactical out of
>the box, but it works
>for me :).

It's severely lacking in options in how to approach the missions. Usually it's just like a mouse-maze. JA2 offered NUMEROUS ways of bypassing each obstacle (such as locked doors - there's no less than 4 ways to get by them), or even different angles of approach to each mission. FOT generally offers only one or two, if that. Sure, one person can play the medic, another the thief, another a grunt, etc. so on and so forth. That's nice, to a point. "Making it tactical" for you is rather laughable when you're in a manufactured level and you are forced to go through it in one direction. And it seems like you have RP and tactics a bit mixed up.

Hell, to give you an example with JA2 (which I've got Alt+Tab'd). Relevent tactical ops are in all caps:

I'm attacking part of a base that has two bunkers in it, with a building on the end. All the enemies are in the bunkers, and only the gate guard is visible and a single guard is on each of the bunkers (this is verified by SCOUTING the entire base, utilizing UV goggles and an Electronic Ear). I have a choice in where to attack, as in which tactic do I wish to use.

On either side of the bunkers is a chain-link fence, the opening on the east with the gate guard. If I have wire cutters, then I can cut the fence and do a SECURITY BYPASS. In other words, getting past their defenses stealthily. If it was a short fence, I could hop over and risk being shot. Or I can RUSH the gate guard and be prepared for the onslaught of the rest of the troops if he sounds the alarm. Or I could blow a hole in a wall and wait to pick them off as they come to investigate (BAIT&WAIT).

Instead I choose to climb the bunkers one at a time (most flat-roofed buildings can be climbed at any point and utilized for higher ground, not needing stairs or being fenced in by mere sandbags...) and AMBUSH the guards in turn with STEALTH and also SILENCED WEAPONS (stealth weapons, really. Includes knives and guns with suppressors and silencers). Then, I sneak my demolitions expert in to create several traps, including mines and remote-controlled TNT and C1. One of which is next to several barrels of gasoline, and the mines right in front of the doors.

Sneaking along one of the bunkers, I toss a grenade to the side of the gate guard so he goes to hit the alarm, essentially using them for panic-value, SCARE-TACTICS (using the enemies' warning system against them to drive them into a trap or away from a location). Using their own security system against them. Or I could drop down and kick one of the doors, setting off the alarm (:)), or I could even hit the emergency switch and set off the alarm that way.

As they rush to the doors, some are taken out by the mines, but I activate the remote to blow away some gas barrels. This is incredibly loud, and a DIVERSIONary tactic, to run to the other bunker where the explosion was while leaving their heads and backs quite exposed to the snipers and SMG experts on the top of the building they just ran out of as they run, mercilessly getting diced apart within a few turns and doing minimal to no return damage. Occasionally I'll have to go in and deal with a soldier that's panicking and running around, but that's quite easy.

And I have about three other options on how to take the base that I would use - including the ever so fun gauntlet technique, and more than that present, and this is with only ONE squad, not two or more if I decided to. I don't find any of these options present in Tactics, or perhaps only one or two per mission, but little else. Give JA2 a chance and see how it does offer what has been esteemed among numerous gamers as the best tactical game out there along X-Com.

About the only thing Tactics really offers tactical-wise aside from rushing is BAITING and AMBUSING (BAIT&WAIT), or what's called POP&POP (they show their faces, you shoot them). It's just a contest for the most part to see how well you can get them to show their faces and shoot them before they shoot you. Or bait them into a mine, etc. Rarely being able to flank, or even getting an advantageous position, due again, to the manufactured levels and manner in which they present the levels. Tactics does not mean deciding in how to attack an enemy, whether you'll shoot them or toss a grenade. There's so much more to it.

As you can tell, I'm not too impressed with this game. RP-wise, it doesn't matter. When actual TACTICS are relevent, it's a poor game.

[font color=orange]
--------------------------------------------
Dennis Leary stole my song! That...asshole!
--------------------------------------------
"Robert, your time has come!"

"OOOH! Thank you, Master!"

"Don't mention it."

*Robert explodes in a shower of sparks*
--------------------------------------------
It's me, Jack Brown! The wind-up ass-hole!
--------------------------------------------

[font color=white]INTERPLAY: REDEFINING BAD BUSINESS

=========================
Try Arcanum, by those who brought you the first Fallout:
http://fp.geocities.com/jonaac/2.jpg
​
 
RE: Perhaps:

My favourite tactic in JA2 was to split my team into two.... a two man team and a four man team.

The two man team would clip the fence and come in from the back taking out any guards on the roof with suppressed weapons(they would also cary plenty of grenades and some long range weapons for sniping). Once that was accomplished the rest of the guys left would perform a frontal assault on the base while the two guys on the roofs would provide cover fire with the sniper rifles and plenty of well placed grenades as the enemy would come out of the buildings to meet the attack. Once nobody else would come out then the two men on the roof would go into each building and clear out any remaining straglers hiding in there while the rest of the guys coverd all of the exits.

Some of my favourite missions were the ones where I got to defend an area. I love me some mortars ;}

You are right about there being a ton of possibilities about aproaching a given attack. I just loved being able to blow any given wall I felt like and the fact that grenades actually damaged the chainlink fences like they would in real life. Or glass breaking in the windows. I still haven't bought FOT and I do not know if I will since I have heard bad things about multiplayer as well as single. It is really too bad.

//It is berry skarry faiting tha snake.
 
RE: Perhaps:

Damn, how did I manage to miss a game like that? I haven't heard much about Jagged Alliance 2 at *all*, and what I did hear of it I thought it was just another FPS akin to Half-Life. Is it a 3rd person view? Does it have any role-playing elements to it at all (like levels and skills)? I really have to stop tuning games out because I have a predisposed notion of what it is...
 
RE: Perhaps:

>Damn, how did I manage to
>miss a game like that?
> I haven't heard much
>about Jagged Alliance 2 at
>*all*, and what I did
>hear of it I thought
>it was just another FPS
>akin to Half-Life. Is
>it a 3rd person view?

It's much like Fallout but without speech trees and a few other items of note, but with a much more interactive environment. As another has said, breakable walls, windows, etc. It's like a cross between X-Com and Fallout, for comparative estimation. Isometric while in tactical screen, but a grid-map for map screen. You even have a laptop that's filled with fun and funny stuff to do.

> Does it have any
>role-playing elements to it at
>all (like levels and skills)?
> I really have to
>stop tuning games out because
>I have a predisposed notion
>of what it is...

Mechanics, medical, and explosives. Those are the base skills. Lockpick is based upon mechanics, and so is untrapping stuff. Grenades and explosive-based weapons and devices are based upon explosives. Medical is used for first aid and doctoring (very different from Fallout, though - after a merc has been wounded and patched up, the only way to bring him back to full health is by doctoring).

Aside from those, each has one or two skills that are *somewhat* unique. Bull is a HtH expert, and just that. While another is both Night Ops (good bonus at night) and Machine Guns. There's even skills for rooftop sniping and numerous others, including throwing (MORE valuable than in Fallout - trust me on this one. Sidney is definitely fun to have around, doubly so for his 'Pip, pip, cheerio!' stereotypical posh Brit mannerisms).

Here's more:

http://fallout.gamestats.com/forum/index.cgi?az=show_thread&om=979&forum=ForumID2&omm=1

[font color=orange]
--------------------------------------------
Dennis Leary stole my song! That...asshole!
--------------------------------------------
"Robert, your time has come!"

"OOOH! Thank you, Master!"

"Don't mention it."

*Robert explodes in a shower of sparks*
--------------------------------------------
It's me, Jack Brown! The wind-up ass-hole!
--------------------------------------------

[font color=white]INTERPLAY: REDEFINING BAD BUSINESS

=========================
Try Arcanum, by those who brought you the first Fallout:
http://fp.geocities.com/jonaac/2.jpg
​
 
>no problems there), it hasn't
>crashed once on me, and
Try doing sub objectives not in order(in st.louis for example :P

>it for not being "Fallout"
>enough, make it Fallout enough
>for yourself - set up
>rules for your squad, govern
>them. Only let them
>use weapons you think appropriate.
Hmmm thats not enough RP for me. The problem with FOT is that you cannot do things other way than they were designed wich is really sad IMO. U should really see JA2 it's also an tactical game but it has much more RPG elements in it.
 
>So, for all of you bashing
>it for not being "Fallout"
>enough,

I have a point to bring up about people who think the above. Look at Final Fantasy tactics, it could hardly be called a final fantasy game at all, but it was fun. I think FOT is definitely a step away from the other fallouts, but hell, it's really fun. Just because its not like its predecessors doesn't mean we cant enjoy it.

-Silencer
 
RE: Perhaps:

God damn roshambo! just by reading your little spiel i'm practically addicted on JA2...and i dont even know what it is... lol so that's what im posting about: what is JA2, and where can i get it??? lol sorry for my ignorance, but i don't rp that much... thanks!!

-Silencer
 
RE: Perhaps:

By now it is a fairly old game(though that doesn't mean anything in this case, I still haven't seen anything that beats it) so you can probably find it in the discount rack of your local Electronics Boutique or some other such store. Either that or you cold no doubt find it on line for a reasonable price. I have seen multiple copies at the stores near me, selling for as low as ten bucks... new. The only advice I have is that when you play it for the first time make sure that you pick the 'tons of guns' option in the menu. This does not mean that there will be a larger amount of equipment to find, it means that thre will be an incredible variety of weapons available.... as well as all the different kninds of amunition that go along with them. The regular setting has a good variety of weapons to begin with, but I was blown away when I replayed the game on that setting. Not all of the guns are good, and you probably will not use half of them, but it is extemely cool and it adds to the realism immensly since you are in a third world country and in such an environment they tend to take whatever kinds of weapons they can get their hands on.

I personally found the sci-fi part of the game somewhat redundant but that is a personal opinion and you can actually TURN OFF that part of the plot. That is one of a very few games about which I have nothing but praise to say(I can probably count the ammount of such games on one hand). And I never encountered any bugs in it(I am sure there were a few but not any that I can recall... I don't think I even bothered to look for the patch).(ofcourse I could have bought the game late enough so that it was already installed on the CD....I dunno)

It also had a surprising ammount of story and even a good bit of what you might call roleplaying, for a game that focused on combat. And it is allmost completely non-linear, really it is completely non linear after you get through the very first part which takes about fifteen minutes to do, and keeping in mind that you have to finish some time ;}

I ,for one, loved Gumpy. He was close to the worst character in the game as far as usefulness, but I thought he was hillarious to have around for the comments he made. I used him so much in fact that by the end of the game he has about 86 in marksmanship, 95 in explosives, and all of his other stats that were possible to raise were upped by at least ten or fifteen points, and he was at eighth level.( all of the stats are out of a 100 and eighth level is very high considering that the best man you can hire is on eighth level, and my main character also finished the game on ninth level. And I screwed around quite a lot getting up in skills.) I also loved the english street punk with the mohawk you get to hire a little later in the game, I don't recall his name. The personalities developed for all of the Mercs were relly impressive and added a lot to the story and the replayability. You just want to try everybody just to hear them talk and see what their reactions are in different situations, and to each other. I cracked up when I heard Grunty comment when he blew the head off an elite force soldier, in his German accent..."Vow!! How Spectacular. Zey even die relly vell!"(I think that was it though I do not remember it precisely, I am also trying to recreate the accent) ;}

Anyways... I am rambling a little too much. Sorry. Just get the game, I highly recomend it, and I doubt you will be dissapointed.

//It is berry skarry faiting tha snake.
 
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