RPGCodex "does" J.E. Sawyer

[Tannhauser]

Josh E. Sawyer, who you may remember as a developer for the Van Buren project, has a nifty new interview with RPGCodex. All sorts of interesting information and quite a bit about Sawyer's take on Van Buren.<blockquote>4. Moving on, next stop - Black Isle's Fallout 3, you are the lead designer again. What was your vision for the game? Where you were going to take the series and would your vision fit into the setting, the feel, the style of the first two games?

Not to speak too much for Chris Avellone, but we both agreed that Fallout 3 shouldn't feel like the world was really getting better. In fact, we wanted to make it feel like it was getting worse. Any infrastructure that groups like NCR had built up had become corrupted and was boiling with the nastier aspects of human social organization: tyranny, war, graft, intolerance -- all that good stuff.

NCR had been totally corrupted by the caravan houses. The Brotherhood of Steel was falling apart and rife with desperation and paranoia. A megalomaniacal tribal despot had risen from the ranks of the Followers of the Apocalypse. The Mormons of New Canaan were divided on issues of religious acceptance and racial biases. Even the remaining super mutants had to deal with a new problem: their impending extinction.

Would BIS' Fallout 3 have fit into the style of the first two? Sure! Yeah, it would have been great! Best ever! Of course I think it did, but I know a lot of people had big problems with the system changes I was making and with the inclusion of groups like the Mormons.</blockquote>Of course, no mention of the interview could be complete without the last question.<blockquote>13. Long time ago, answering a question about the future of RPGs at NMA, you said that they are going "straight to hell" and that "Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S." How would you answer the same question today?

To my knowledge there are no pure PC RPG developers left outside of very small outfits like Spiderweb Software.

Welcome to hell!</blockquote>At this point, we all eagerly await Vault Dweller's next developer interview.

Link: Interview with JE Sawyer at RPGCodex.

Thanks to Briosafreak.

 

[Roshambo]

To my knowledge there are no pure PC RPG developers left outside of very small outfits like Spiderweb Software.

Welcome to hell!

Welcome to 1995, when Ultima went to hell and few other good titles were released until...1997, the last notable game before Fallout being a Wizardry title.

Oh, and to note something I've been making a mistake on, on the hope that someone would correct me on it. Fallout was released in 1997. Diablo was released in 1996.

Also, a side note to any Bethesda developer/still clueless fan/PR guy reading this. Fallout came AFTER the "trendy" of Diablo, and came AFTER the same kind of "progressive" gameplay people try to attribute as "modern", since Morrowind used it yet it has been in use before Daggerfall. Since Arena and Wizardry, in fact. So, as a reminder, those excuses have been pre-emptively been rendered null and void for changing any key design points. Oh, and I don't consider TES to be RPGs, no Roguelike is an RPG by any stretch of the imagination - those are what are defined as "dungeon crawlers", classified upon their core gameplay elements. A stat system is not exclusive to any genre.

The industry simply isn't innovating anymore outside of the indie developers, as the mainstream are shitting in their own feed trough and happy to do so while having the mental image it's fliet mignon they're gnawing on. I know the term "shit-eating grin" should have relevance in the gaming media lately, but when it implies they are already squishing down on the rolls and then grin...that's just fucking sad.

Despite my disagreements about his design, he does have a keen awareness of the industry...at times.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

I'm perplexed. Since when does J.E. Sawyer have a better understanding of CRPGs and CRPG design than MCA?

 

[Jora]

I'm perplexed. Since when does J.E. Sawyer have a better understanding of CRPGs and CRPG design than MCA?

Uh... since always? Haven't you read anything J.E. has written? You can start by reading this article: http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=24

 

[Per]

I'm reasonably sure that the best area by far in IwD2 was done by Avellone. The next best may well have been done by Sawyer. And then there was some indescribable crap in between, mixed with passable stuff.

 

[Roshambo]

Uh... since always? Haven't you read anything J.E. has written? You can start by reading this article: http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=24

Then there's the simple proof between each interview.
J.E. has a better grasp of why the genre is called CRPG.
MCA is a BioWhore who frankly hasn't done much notable if he wasn't one of the brains behind PS:T. Because let's see what else he's done.

Designed a misplaced are for Feargus' SLAM DUNK! game Fallout 2, practice for every other piece of <15 month developed shit put out at full price. Frankly, Baldur's Gate was better than Asswind Dale, simply because there was more of a game, and you can easily attribute the decline of quality CRPGs to that nickel-and-dime attitude since it easily bred distrust with people who had expected better of you. And that was not me, but rather someone who was gushing about PS:T and then about Asswind Dale, until he tried it. I, of course, had a copy around to help the education process. He didn't get far, but reloaded PS:T to play a different kind of character. What an impression!

The same with the sequel, because the few months shows. Has been frequently clueless of Fallout's setting and design, but we're not even sure he had a clue to begin with. KoTOR 2: Makes the original look imaginative and brilliant - except for the munchkin kiddies. Whomever did the podracer subgames should be shot and sent to The Hell of Being Raped By Every Diseased Monkey Used to Develop The Omen Engine. You know, the one that MDK II used, and now it seems that all ability to make a quality action subgame just went completely out the window.

MCA also has a special place in the hearts of the Fallout: POS designers, right next to Herve. Care to explain, MCA, as you now seem to be the person "from BIS who we talked to for some time" (paraphrased from Chuck himself)?

Then, he has also "released" (with much the same effect as a bowel movement) a Fallout bible that did little to really answer, it felt (to some of the admins at the time of the sites where I was at the time) like correcting a retarded child's homework. Really, how DO you nicely get someone fired from their job for utter cluelessness of material they were supposed to be aware of and design with? As if cluelessness really matters much in the game industry when hype can fill in the chasm, as it obviously let them sell their SLAM DUNK! bullshit for a while.. Instead, the bible felt more like an intellectual scheiser video.

And, between the two of them, J.E. has said the least amount of stupid things. Don't mistake me, both HAVE said some stupid things, MCA's have just been a litany of cluelessness about Fallout canon that could be observed simply by playing the games, requiring that we take our time to repeatedly beat into MCA's skull certain settings elements that he apparently never bothered to learn and still didn't care to while attention whoring like Chuck; while J.E. had argued incorrectly for a dual mechanics system that will never work for the amount of time put into it, rather than see the wisdom in making a GOOD combat system.

I could pull up other examples, but that's enough for now. MCA's still far, far ahead.

 

[Jora]

I'm reasonably sure that the best area by far in IwD2 was done by Avellone. The next best may well have been done by Sawyer. And then there was some indescribable crap in between, mixed with passable stuff.

Avellone made Targos, yes, but Puuk made Severed Hand (with someone else)

edit: J.E. was more of an overseer

 

[Wooz]

Quite frankly, the only thing I liked in IWD2 was the character artwork, mostly done by Jason Manley.

The music in Targos. Ugh.

 

[Mani]

I think real-time and turn-based can co-exist in the same game. I don't think it's an automatic recipe for disaster

No they can't. They're like fire and water and can't coexist together. Go with one or the other but don't be a ladyboy and try to get the best of two worlds, it just doesnt work. I know of no game that has succesfully done this.

 

[SumsoluS]

Turn Based in Fallout Tactics just didn't work, it was quicker and easier to play real time [yes I played it sigh]. Mainly because everything fucked up bigtime when in TB mode eg: clicking on an area 4 steps ahead of you, the character dumbfeck would run in opposite direction, using up all the action points and then set a mine off.

They blatently focused on real time first then turn based, tb was shoddy compared to Fallout's.

Same with Lionheart, except real time was like being on crack especially when running about..unless I was on crack at the time..I dunno.

But once again a co-existing TB/RT rpg game sucked arse. So I'd opt for TB and say fo to RT, it's not needed in RPGS. Leave real time to FPS/RTS games please.

 

[Josan]

MCA is a BioWhore who frankly hasn't done much notable if he wasn't one of the brains behind PS:T. Because let's see what else he's done...

PS-T is what reintroduced me to gaming. Prior to that I hadn't played anything since the early-mid 90's. At the time I thought it was brilliant and very original.

Then I read a TSR novel in the Planescape setting called "Pages of Pain" by Troy Denning which came out in September 1996. The plot is... I bet you can't guess... The plot is about an uber tough amnesiac who's wandering around Sigil. So much for originality although I recall reading an interview where MCA said he'd never heard of the novel when he thought up the story for PS-T.

Van Buren (FO3) as intended, started out with the PC waking up in a prison cell not knowing how they got there. Sound familiar?

And while I haven't played KotOR2 because I couldn't give a rat's ass about anything Star Wars related I've been told that it starts with a variation of the same theme.

At least New Reno, while being little more than pathetic adolescent fantasies, didn't involve any amnesia.

As for JE, though we've yet to see him start and complete anything other than IWD2 (through no fault of his own), he does have more original ideas and grudgingly gets my respect for his technical design skills.

 

[Roshambo]

PS-T is what reintroduced me to gaming. Prior to that I hadn't played anything since the early-mid 90's. At the time I thought it was brilliant and very original.

To be honest, there wasn't much worth playing from the mainstream between 1998 and PS:T. Not much after then, either, until Arcanum.

Then I read a TSR novel in the Planescape setting called "Pages of Pain" by Troy Denning which came out in September 1996. The plot is... I bet you can't guess... The plot is about an uber tough amnesiac who's wandering around Sigil. So much for originality although I recall reading an interview where MCA said he'd never heard of the novel when he thought up the story for PS-T.

Given that MCA has pretty much copied the same "bad-ass with amnesia" schtick ever since, I think that may safely be considered a lie. Given his ability seems to be scaled down from the material he "derives from", even down to the amnesia plot recycled in KoTOR 2, and "Pages of Pain" is said to be brilliant compared to many in the genre, then I think we have a warranted suspicion. It also seems to make sense, again given how MCA's "derivative creativity" worked in KoTOR 2.

Van Buren (FO3) as intended, started out with the PC waking up in a prison cell not knowing how they got there. Sound familiar?

And, like, you were to find out that you were the lost main bad guy from teh Evil Side, then one of your generals took over and is now terrorizing the wasteland. Such imagination!

And while I haven't played KotOR2 because I couldn't give a rat's ass about anything Star Wars related I've been told that it starts with a variation of the same theme.

Well, you do pretty much wake up in a healing tank, but your first NPC is found in a prison cell.

OMG! It's like, sooooo different and new!

Fuck it. I hereby make the prediction, that NWN 2 will feature an amnesia plot device somewhere in it, simply because MCA nor anyone of the BioWhore collective is even remotely interested in faking creativity, much less any real creativity. And the focus of Obsidian is supposed to be the story and the characters, as MCA copied from a press-release for his interview. Then why does their story and characters SUCK?! (If not outright "derivative"...okay, I'll stop being nice....outright stolen for maximum effect of sucking.)

As for KoTOR, you're not missing much. Think of BioWare's shitty combat...but with lightsabers and Jedi effects that make combat even more "Zzzzzzz." but with more imbalance than ever before, and with cliché Good/Evil paths that often have no effect later on in the game.

The sequel sucked additional donkey balls, in an attempt to top Chuck at taking someone else's material and raping it in a crazy donkey show of hype. And to top their original craptacular job in sequel-making from Fallout 2. Many parts are clearly unfinished in the sequel; the areas, when put together, KoTOR 2's simply do not compete with KoTOR 1's. Taris was designed far better than its counterpart in KoTOR 2, simply because there actually was some city feeling to Taris, while those in the Telos station felt like a school of mackerel and a bad parody of the first game - this went throughout the game even down to the level design; no talent can be said for those who designed Telos, it is perhaps the most unimaginative collection of boxy rooms I've ever seen outside of NWN or bad UT maps; the item creation system is a clearly useless addition of material that simply doesn't really add anything but extra twinkery to compliment the random item drops. In a game this size, with its occasional linear bits, random drops are quite stupid. The storytelling in the sequel is inferior, as what was used in the first was directly rehashed for the sequel, but with far less talent; as is the character design, where the characters from the first were poorly treated in some cases, and the ones created for the sequel simply sucked ass. Kreia is accredited at being deep, but only if you count the hype interviews and the bullshit Obsidian/BioWare ass-lampreys will mimic along. Anyone who has read a few books, or even played a few good CRPGs, could have spotted Kreia's shallow design and intents from a mile away, and the general shallowness of the story/plot devices. Well, apparently having NOT read Pages of Pain doesn't count in this case, as it didn't help the design of KoTOR 2 despite what it might have done for PS:T.

At least New Reno, while being little more than pathetic adolescent fantasies, didn't involve any amnesia.

Incorrect. The inspiration to induce amnesia counts as involvement.

Really, New Reno was otherwise uninspiring except for an almost Chuck Cuevas adolescant fantasy. It had little else but a rew competing components, but otherwise had no relevance to the game. Much like Feargus' work on the Boneyards. No connection to the setting, tenuous connection to the plot, and may be skipped entirely without otherwise missing much from the game. Non-essential filler, in other words, and that is exactly what his design falls into. Lately, with the recycling of story elements, I think it's clear that he's simply not trying or not bothering to keep up the illusion of trying.

So, if he's the lead designer of Obsidian's in-house project, I guess you can plan on a shitty amnesia plot being used somewhere, or some other lame BioWare schtick.

As for JE, though we've yet to see him start and complete anything other than IWD2 (through no fault of his own), he does have more original ideas and grudgingly gets my respect for his technical design skills.

I really don't think he's suited for a leader position, but instead more towards a designer under the lead of someone who has a good plan and knows what they are doing. Too bad, as he has said, that number of real designers in the industry is quite small.

So, now that BioWare's going down the corporate shitter and might be due for their hype to not be worth the full price gouge for the same crappy storytelling and complexity mixed with "COOL PARTICLE EFFEXORZ AND JEDI TITS!!", we just need for another development house to pull a "Fallout". but then we'll have another lame "BioWare" to copy from their design and a license to try and claim innovation. Assuming that BioWare dies out for pulling a self-EAing on themselves first.

 

[Josan]

Then I read a TSR novel in the Planescape setting called "Pages of Pain" by Troy Denning which came out in September 1996. The plot is... I bet you can't guess... The plot is about an uber tough amnesiac who's wandering around Sigil. So much for originality although I recall reading an interview where MCA said he'd never heard of the novel when he thought up the story for PS-T.

Given that MCA has pretty much copied the same "bad-ass with amnesia" schtick ever since, I think that may safely be considered a lie. Given his ability seems to be scaled down from the material he "derives from", even down to the amnesia plot recycled in KoTOR 2, and "Pages of Pain" is said to be brilliant compared to many in the genre, then I think we have a warranted suspicion. It also seems to make sense, again given how MCA's "derivative creativity" worked in KoTOR 2.

Well, I was trying to give MCA the benefit of the doubt. But there are two things that really screw that attempt. One is the extreme lack of variety in Planescape material out there at the time. Hell, I think the DarkSun setting have more source material than Planescape and like you, I have a hard time believing that no-one either at TSR or at BIS researching the setting said "uh, hey, this was just done". The second is that MCA appearntly complained about the use of amnesia as a plot device once upon a time, saying it was a lame cop out. Suddenly it appears again and again in his work. A case of "the lady doth protest too much" if ever there was one.

Van Buren (FO3) as intended, started out with the PC waking up in a prison cell not knowing how they got there. Sound familiar?

And, like, you were to find out that you were the lost main bad guy from teh Evil Side, then one of your generals took over and is now terrorizing the wasteland. Such imagination!

Don't forget the robots!!!. Lots and lots and lots of robots as originally envisioned. That's original. Not keeping much to the feel of Fallout but what the hell.

And while I haven't played KotOR2 because I couldn't give a rat's ass about anything Star Wars related I've been told that it starts with a variation of the same theme.

Well, you do pretty much wake up in a healing tank, but your first NPC is found in a prison cell.

OMG! It's like, sooooo different and new!

Fuck it. I hereby make the prediction, that NWN 2 will feature an amnesia plot device somewhere in it...

As for KoTOR, you're not missing much. Think of BioWare's shitty combat...but with lightsabers and Jedi effects that make combat even more "Zzzzzzz." but with more imbalance than ever before, and with cliché Good/Evil paths that often have no effect later on in the game.

I'll agree with that prediction. Either amnesia or a prison cell somewhere or, since it's been a while, how about gambling and whoring?

And as for BioWare's combat, I'd hardly describe "click and watch" as combat. I think you're being too generous there.

At least New Reno, while being little more than pathetic adolescent fantasies, didn't involve any amnesia.

Incorrect. The inspiration to induce amnesia counts as involvement. Very Happy

Really, New Reno was otherwise uninspiring except for an almost Chuck Cuevas adolescant fantasy. It had little else but a rew competing components, but otherwise had no relevance to the game. Much like Feargus' work on the Boneyards. No connection to the setting, tenuous connection to the plot, and may be skipped entirely without otherwise missing much from the game. Non-essential filler, in other words, and that is exactly what his design falls into. Lately, with the recycling of story elements, I think it's clear that he's simply not trying or not bothering to keep up the illusion of trying.

So, if he's the lead designer of Obsidian's in-house project, I guess you can plan on a shitty amnesia plot being used somewhere, or some other lame BioWare schtick.

Feargus wouldn't know design or managment if it kicked him in the balls. He's also proven time and again that without BioWare to give him a handout, he has no management skills what-so-ever. False starts on FO3 at BIS, screwing TORN (which had far more problems than just the engine), his choices in assigning lead designers and programmers... the list goes on and on and on. And it's getting longer. Watching Obsidian after the release of NWN2 will be very interesting.

As for MCA's next possible gig as a lead... well, watching Obsidian after the release of NWN2 will be very interesting. Oh wait, I just said that.

As for JE, though we've yet to see him start and complete anything other than IWD2 (through no fault of his own), he does have more original ideas and grudgingly gets my respect for his technical design skills.

I really don't think he's suited for a leader position, but instead more towards a designer under the lead of someone who has a good plan and knows what they are doing. Too bad, as he has said, that number of real designers in the industry is quite small.

Again, I'll give JE more credit. Unlike other people we could mention, his taste in reading goes beyond comic books.

 

[Corith]

Feargus wouldn't know design or management if it kicked him in the balls. He's also proven time and again that without BioWare to give him a handout, he has no management skills what-so-ever.

Truer words were never spoken.

I really don't think he's suited for a leader position, but instead more towards a designer under the lead of someone who has a good plan and knows what they are doing.

I know I am in the minority, but I do not find JE game style to my tastes. He has a bad habit of leading players by the nose instead of allowing them even the merest illusion of choice.
Like his mentor, Feargus, there is also a certain amount of arrogance that I find distasteful.

 

[Josan]

Like his mentor, Feargus, there is also a certain amount of arrogance that I find distasteful.

Seriously, between FU, MCA and JES I often wonder how the three of them can all fit in one room. Must make for some interesting "ego" stroking...

 

[dude_obj]

Sawyer's take on Van Buren.

Reading stuff like this now makes me want to cry.

Fallout 3 shouldn't feel like the world was really getting better. In fact, we wanted to make it feel like it was getting worse.

I love this, sounds perfect to me. It never made sense to me how people had time to make porn films in the post apoc world of FO2.

 

[Roshambo]

Well, I was trying to give MCA the benefit of the doubt. But there are two things that really screw that attempt. One is the extreme lack of variety in Planescape material out there at the time. Hell, I think the DarkSun setting have more source material than Planescape and like you, I have a hard time believing that no-one either at TSR or at BIS researching the setting said "uh, hey, this was just done".

Oh, yes...TSR, the same people who sued Gygax. The publishers of the book would have had plenty to say about it.

The second is that MCA appearntly complained about the use of amnesia as a plot device once upon a time, saying it was a lame cop out. Suddenly it appears again and again in his work. A case of "the lady doth protest too much" if ever there was one.

All I can do to this is shrug and nod. All too damning.

Don't forget the robots!!!. Lots and lots and lots of robots as originally envisioned. That's original. Not keeping much to the feel of Fallout but what the hell.

Yeah, I'm still a bit fuzzy on the whole "robots still being around in the wasteland" when those in the wasteland seemed to be in extreme disrepair to begin with unless in a shielded location.

Satuation of technology is not quite Fallout, nor is it "regressing" from a more complex civilization scale.

I'll agree with that prediction. Either amnesia or a prison cell somewhere or, since it's been a while, how about gambling and whoring?

Really, Telos felt like just another New Reno, in that it pretty much could have fit into any other setting and have been just as irrelevant.

And as for BioWare's combat, I'd hardly describe "click and watch" as combat. I think you're being too generous there.

Fine.

Click, watch, drool, kiss the keyboard, slap yourself in the face to keep awake, kiss the keyboard again, prop your eyelids open with toothpicks, cry about having no defense from the game, pull out the gun from the desk drawer and pull the trigger until the clicks register through the suicidal haze that now comprises your whole existence, snapping you awake and back to torture as you remembered that your girlfriend hid the bullets for this very occasion.

Feargus wouldn't know design or managment if it kicked him in the balls.

He should ask Herve "Blue Balls" Caen about how that "sucking in the industry" thing works out once people see past the smoke and mirrors.

He's also proven time and again that without BioWare to give him a handout, he has no management skills what-so-ever.

Kind of like if BioWare and licenses. If it weren't for them, people would see the games for the shitty quality work that they truly are.

Jade Empire, anyone?

False starts on FO3 at BIS, screwing TORN (which had far more problems than just the engine), his choices in assigning lead designers and programmers... the list goes on and on and on. And it's getting longer.

Selling out the garbage of Lionheart for the sake of his buddies to obtain open mockery in the industry. Don't forget that one.

Watching Obsidian after the release of NWN2 will be very interesting.

It's like an Amtrak slamming into a bus of special kids, continuing to derail into a manure refinery until it's nothing but shitty retard hamburgers for everyone to see.

As for MCA's next possible gig as a lead... well, watching Obsidian after the release of NWN2 will be very interesting. Oh wait, I just said that.

Hmmm...add a gasoline tanker along with the retard bus, it's going to be spectacular.

Again, I'll give JE more credit. Unlike other people we could mention, his taste in reading goes beyond comic books.

Indeed. And knows what makes a CRPG rather than say that CRPGs could offer role-playing, when a CRPG should inherently require it.

 

[MrBumble]

"Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S."

I guess he would have changed his mind anyway after Vampire Bloodlines even if Troika didn't have had the sad end we all know.

 

[Roshambo]

I guess he would have changed his mind anyway after Vampire Bloodlines even if Troika didn't have had the sad end we all know.

Even with FPS mechanics, Bloodlines was far more a CRPG than ANYTHING BioWare or BIS/Obsidian has done, simply due to story design and storytelling mechanics. The incompetence from Descent to Undermountain to KoTOR 2 just screams that an overrated Starfleet Academy map designer was a bad pick for a lead creative designer of a full CRPG, and has been since 1998. I'm really not counting PS:T anymore, since they obviously haven't bothered to do any work since and seem to be clueless themselves about the character design. Compared to the rest of their work and given that cluelessness about their own work, PS:T reads like plagiarism; like a mediocre grade school student suddenly popping a physics thesis from their ass - possible in some quantum oscillation, but not too likely back in practice, and the instructor would likely be investigating HOW said student defecated something clear out of their league.

Fact is, MCA and the rest of Obsidian, nor the rest of the current mainstream industry, are in the same league as PS:T or Fallout, or pretty much any game made that offers real role-playing, to be considered in the RPG genre. Hell, compared to Bloodlines, nobody's really made a decent (or for that matter, real) FPS-RPG hybrid.

 

[Josan]

Fact is, MCA and the rest of Obsidian, nor the rest of the current mainstream industry, are in the same league as PS:T or Fallout, or pretty much any game made that offers real role-playing, to be considered in the RPG genre. Hell, compared to Bloodlines, nobody's really made a decent (or for that matter, real) FPS-RPG hybrid.

All this talk of amnesia made me completely forget something; the title MCA will be remembered for long after PS-T and FO2 have turned to dust...

Descent to Undermountain!!!

I almost forgot it myself. I kept confusing it with that Disney movie "Escape from Witch's Mountain". An easy mistake considering both had unparalleled suckitude factors. The difference being that one was a kids movie from Disney so I didn't expect much even when I was a kid.

Now, I could go on and on and on about all the problems with DtU such as piss poor writing, extremely pathetic managment decisions, graphics that somehow escaped a time capsule from 5 years prior which were completely wasted on an otherwise decent engine (which wasn't even designed for the type of game DtU was supposed to be) but instead of going on and on and on about all those craptastic qualities, I'll simply suggest reading some reviews or waiting for Roshambo to reply.